1
00:00:26,870 --> 00:00:23,640
hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

2
00:00:29,990 --> 00:00:26,880
show number 25 for the tenth of April

3
00:00:32,310 --> 00:00:30,000
2009 Richard Saunders here with you a

4
00:00:34,530 --> 00:00:32,320
departure from our regular format today

5
00:00:37,410 --> 00:00:34,540
a couple of weeks ago our good friend

6
00:00:39,390 --> 00:00:37,420
Ian Bryce the challenge investigator for

7
00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:39,400
Australian skeptics traveled up to

8
00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:41,170
springwood in the Blue Mountains just

9
00:00:47,070 --> 00:00:43,690
west of Sydney to debate Reverend Ian

10
00:00:50,790 --> 00:00:47,080
power on the topic can we be good enough

11
00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:50,800
without God what follows today is the

12
00:00:54,780 --> 00:00:53,440
debate in its entirety apart from

13
00:00:58,290 --> 00:00:54,790
question time because that would have

14
00:01:00,450 --> 00:00:58,300
taken the show over time so sit back and

15
00:01:03,390 --> 00:01:00,460
enjoy this interesting debate with the

16
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:03,400
to IANS as they debate can we be good

17
00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:12,830
ladies and gentlemen let me welcome you

18
00:01:18,260 --> 00:01:15,360
to tonight's great piece to debate

19
00:01:20,540 --> 00:01:18,270
tonight is the sixth of these that's

20
00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:20,550
been hosted here at Springwood my name

21
00:01:24,980 --> 00:01:22,350
is Graham crew on one of the pastor's of

22
00:01:27,100 --> 00:01:24,990
the Anglican Church and i'll also be

23
00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:27,110
your scrupulous chairperson tonight

24
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:29,310
we're pleased to be able to sponsor than

25
00:01:33,050 --> 00:01:30,450
tonight in cooperation with the

26
00:01:35,660 --> 00:01:33,060
Australian skeptics thank you for coming

27
00:01:37,220 --> 00:01:35,670
I trust that wherever you are in your

28
00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:37,230
beliefs tonight you'll be entertained

29
00:01:41,990 --> 00:01:39,810
challenge stretched and helped on your

30
00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:42,000
journey to the truth we've sponsored

31
00:01:46,550 --> 00:01:43,530
tonight in the belief the faith and

32
00:01:49,550 --> 00:01:46,560
reason not enemies and nor should they

33
00:01:51,260 --> 00:01:49,560
fear questioning tonight's debate is

34
00:01:53,810 --> 00:01:51,270
offered in the what we believe to be the

35
00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:53,820
true spirit of Tolerance that doesn't

36
00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:56,130
seek to coerce agreement doesn't deny

37
00:02:00,920 --> 00:01:58,290
difference but seeks to understand

38
00:02:03,740 --> 00:02:00,930
respect and persuade those with whom we

39
00:02:05,030 --> 00:02:03,750
differ well of course be no voting for

40
00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:05,040
winners or losers at the end of

41
00:02:09,620 --> 00:02:07,650
tonight's debate buying the debate will

42
00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:09,630
be a time for questions and a

43
00:02:13,580 --> 00:02:11,310
complimentary suffer to finish off the

44
00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:13,590
evening where you can debate to all

45
00:02:19,970 --> 00:02:16,800
lights go out there is some information

46
00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:19,980
on the out of the FOIA from the Anglican

47
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:21,810
Church and I'm not quite sure if we're

48
00:02:26,060 --> 00:02:23,730
able to get some information from the

49
00:02:28,550 --> 00:02:26,070
skeptics tonight but that opportunity

50
00:02:31,460 --> 00:02:28,560
was offered there my job is chairman

51
00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:31,470
will be to keep our debaters to time and

52
00:02:36,650 --> 00:02:33,570
in line on Kiki looking at you mr.

53
00:02:38,570 --> 00:02:36,660
Powell who is a known who was a known

54
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:38,580
supporter of South Sydney Rabbitohs so

55
00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:41,850
immediately that comes under suspicion

56
00:02:47,810 --> 00:02:44,850
issue the year of the rabbit this year

57
00:02:49,850 --> 00:02:47,820
is it so I like to hand over to Vicky

58
00:02:51,500 --> 00:02:49,860
brassington who's the lady who's that

59
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:51,510
put this together and she'll introduce

60
00:03:01,580 --> 00:02:54,090
our speakers to us tonight but thank

61
00:03:04,370 --> 00:03:01,590
Vicky well thank you everyone we have

62
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:04,380
always sought in these debates to find

63
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:06,570
two speakers who are articulate and

64
00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:08,970
passionate about the issues and tonight

65
00:03:15,710 --> 00:03:12,030
we are fortunate to have two such men in

66
00:03:19,340 --> 00:03:15,720
Bryce from the skeptics according to the

67
00:03:22,130 --> 00:03:19,350
ABC radio national was a Senate

68
00:03:24,830 --> 00:03:22,140
candidate for the secular party in 2007

69
00:03:27,590 --> 00:03:24,840
federal elections as a secular party of

70
00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:27,600
australia believes that non-religious

71
00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:29,670
solutions are needed for many of

72
00:03:35,030 --> 00:03:32,970
australia's and the world's problems he

73
00:03:37,370 --> 00:03:35,040
qualified in physics and engineering at

74
00:03:40,010 --> 00:03:37,380
Monash University and has pursued

75
00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:40,020
careers in telecommunications aircraft

76
00:03:45,230 --> 00:03:43,170
manufacturer and Space engineering he

77
00:03:48,170 --> 00:03:45,240
the founding director of the Australian

78
00:03:51,890 --> 00:03:48,180
Space Research Institute which is a

79
00:03:55,250 --> 00:03:51,900
volunteer group conducting space

80
00:03:57,860 --> 00:03:55,260
research and education for a years he's

81
00:03:59,870 --> 00:03:57,870
been a casual academic at the University

82
00:04:03,350 --> 00:03:59,880
of New South Wales but our mechanical

83
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:03,360
engineering space vehicle design and he

84
00:04:09,470 --> 00:04:07,530
does contracting no it's not it has been

85
00:04:11,930 --> 00:04:09,480
active on humanist and skeptics

86
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:11,940
committees for many decades he believes

87
00:04:16,270 --> 00:04:14,250
scientific principles can be used to

88
00:04:18,820 --> 00:04:16,280
shed light on many social issues

89
00:04:21,979 --> 00:04:18,830
including religion ethics and the

90
00:04:23,990 --> 00:04:21,989
environment recently he became an

91
00:04:26,660 --> 00:04:24,000
honorary life member of Australian

92
00:04:29,390 --> 00:04:26,670
skeptics with whom he has engaged for

93
00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:29,400
decades as a psychic investigator and

94
00:04:47,529 --> 00:04:45,219
my Reverend Ian power is senior pastor

95
00:04:50,409 --> 00:04:47,539
of one of the largest city Anglican

96
00:04:52,390 --> 00:04:50,419
churches cinnabar novice Broadway which

97
00:04:54,519 --> 00:04:52,400
has for many years had a significant

98
00:04:57,249 --> 00:04:54,529
ministry to students of Sydney

99
00:04:59,920 --> 00:04:57,259
University prior to this he was chaplain

100
00:05:01,540 --> 00:04:59,930
to the shore school and worked earned

101
00:05:04,059 --> 00:05:01,550
sorry and worked for some years

102
00:05:07,779 --> 00:05:04,069
full-time with the Diocese of Sydney as

103
00:05:10,119 --> 00:05:07,789
one of the chief missioners in is one of

104
00:05:12,309 --> 00:05:10,129
Sydney's most sought-after Christian

105
00:05:14,309 --> 00:05:12,319
conference speakers and one of the best

106
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:14,319
thinkers about how Christianity and

107
00:05:25,450 --> 00:05:17,930
contemporary issues interact so again

108
00:05:29,930 --> 00:05:28,070
thanks Vicki our debate format tonight

109
00:05:32,450 --> 00:05:29,940
is designed to allow maximum interaction

110
00:05:36,580 --> 00:05:32,460
and also time to allow our speakers to

111
00:05:40,659 --> 00:05:36,590
develop their cases there will be a

112
00:05:43,780 --> 00:05:40,669
delicate one minute warning bell and

113
00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:43,790
when your time has expired more vigorous

114
00:05:49,490 --> 00:05:46,110
ringing of the bell to indicator your

115
00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:49,500
time is up in this section the we will

116
00:05:54,860 --> 00:05:52,290
ask each speaker to have 15 minutes and

117
00:05:56,930 --> 00:05:54,870
then another 15 minutes to pursue their

118
00:05:59,930 --> 00:05:56,940
case and then a five minutes at the end

119
00:06:03,230 --> 00:05:59,940
to summarize and then we'll have an open

120
00:06:05,719 --> 00:06:03,240
at time for questions from the floor so

121
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:05,729
keep that one in mind if you would our

122
00:06:13,580 --> 00:06:09,450
topic tonight we can be good enough

123
00:06:15,860 --> 00:06:13,590
without God it's been claimed by some

124
00:06:17,719 --> 00:06:15,870
Christians and some other face that

125
00:06:20,900 --> 00:06:17,729
without belief in God there is no

126
00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:20,910
logical basis for either a moral code or

127
00:06:26,420 --> 00:06:23,910
personal motivation to do good these

128
00:06:29,330 --> 00:06:26,430
claims have come under significant fire

129
00:06:33,710 --> 00:06:29,340
recently from the new ideas any web

130
00:06:37,340 --> 00:06:33,720
server ality basis of god will turn on

131
00:06:39,140 --> 00:06:37,350
numerous recent critiques and yet it was

132
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:39,150
again the subject to a recent sydney

133
00:06:42,770 --> 00:06:41,130
morning herald article by christian

134
00:06:46,150 --> 00:06:42,780
researcher John Dickson in which he

135
00:06:49,129 --> 00:06:46,160
claimed do-gooding remains a particular

136
00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:49,139
preoccupation of the faithful so

137
00:06:54,620 --> 00:06:51,110
tonight's debate is very current and

138
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:54,630
important so I'd ask Brian to step four

139
00:07:03,760 --> 00:06:56,610
to the mic and now the affirmative cast

140
00:07:07,670 --> 00:07:05,810
okay well thank you very much that

141
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:07,680
introduction and the opportunity to

142
00:07:12,980 --> 00:07:10,530
address you here tonight I'm going to

143
00:07:15,830 --> 00:07:12,990
start by saying if you want to find out

144
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:15,840
if it can be good enough without God we

145
00:07:20,659 --> 00:07:18,570
need to have compared the two competing

146
00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:20,669
theories that one our morals come from

147
00:07:25,220 --> 00:07:22,440
God and two they come from somewhere

148
00:07:28,159 --> 00:07:25,230
else so I'm going to start by looking at

149
00:07:29,950 --> 00:07:28,169
the evidence that they came from God and

150
00:07:32,980 --> 00:07:29,960
then perhaps I'll read you a little

151
00:07:41,810 --> 00:07:32,990
passage from the head start of the Old

152
00:07:46,610 --> 00:07:41,820
Testament and this is from numbers

153
00:07:48,650 --> 00:07:46,620
chapter 31 and the Lord said to Moses

154
00:07:52,610 --> 00:07:48,660
saying take vengeance on the Midianites

155
00:07:55,159 --> 00:07:52,620
and I'm going to select little bits of

156
00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:55,169
it from from the passage here because it

157
00:07:58,909 --> 00:07:56,850
takes too long otherwise and the award

158
00:08:00,920 --> 00:07:58,919
against the Midianites just as the LORD

159
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:00,930
commanded Moses and they killed all the

160
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:03,930
males and the children of Israel took

161
00:08:08,659 --> 00:08:05,970
the women of Midian captive with their

162
00:08:10,159 --> 00:08:08,669
little ones and took his spoil their

163
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:10,169
cattle all their flocks and all their

164
00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:13,890
goods they also burned with fire or the

165
00:08:18,740 --> 00:08:15,450
cities where they dwelt and all their

166
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:18,750
forts and Moses said to them have you

167
00:08:23,330 --> 00:08:21,570
kept all the women alive now therefore

168
00:08:26,570 --> 00:08:23,340
kill every male among the little ones

169
00:08:30,379 --> 00:08:26,580
and kill every woman who has no man

170
00:08:31,969 --> 00:08:30,389
intimately but keep alive for yourselves

171
00:08:36,380 --> 00:08:31,979
all the young girls who have not known

172
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:36,390
man intimately now this is not an

173
00:08:40,459 --> 00:08:38,370
isolated acids there are many such one

174
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:40,469
is in the Bible and I don't need to go

175
00:08:45,110 --> 00:08:43,530
through the ball of them but do you

176
00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:45,120
think that indicates the source of

177
00:08:52,190 --> 00:08:49,250
morality for mankind I don't think so

178
00:08:54,110 --> 00:08:52,200
let's look at how that would imply today

179
00:08:56,540 --> 00:08:54,120
if you were carrying out God's wishes

180
00:08:58,400 --> 00:08:56,550
today you hear in springwood on this

181
00:09:00,620 --> 00:08:58,410
side of the mountains would get on your

182
00:09:02,660 --> 00:09:00,630
mules or perhaps the bus and go over the

183
00:09:04,430 --> 00:09:02,670
mountains perhaps to let go where

184
00:09:07,550 --> 00:09:04,440
another tribe lives that you could well

185
00:09:09,110 --> 00:09:07,560
be having a war with and you would take

186
00:09:10,489 --> 00:09:09,120
everything they own a spoils and burn

187
00:09:12,079 --> 00:09:10,499
down their houses and kill all

188
00:09:13,789 --> 00:09:12,089
a man and kill all the boy children and

189
00:09:15,649 --> 00:09:13,799
the little girl children you would rip

190
00:09:18,379 --> 00:09:15,659
their clothes up and examine whether or

191
00:09:20,029 --> 00:09:18,389
not they'd lane with man if they had you

192
00:09:23,149 --> 00:09:20,039
had killed them and if you didn't you

193
00:09:25,759 --> 00:09:23,159
would rape them now I'm sorry to be so

194
00:09:28,909 --> 00:09:25,769
shocking to you but that is from your

195
00:09:30,319 --> 00:09:28,919
holy book that many of many Anglican

196
00:09:32,509 --> 00:09:30,329
zand other Christians hold up as their

197
00:09:33,889 --> 00:09:32,519
source of morality and you can perhaps

198
00:09:36,259 --> 00:09:33,899
begin to see the difficulty the

199
00:09:44,479 --> 00:09:36,269
secularists have when i see that have an

200
00:09:46,069 --> 00:09:44,489
english so in conclusion to give the

201
00:09:47,869 --> 00:09:46,079
bible and be able teachings that you

202
00:09:52,909 --> 00:09:47,879
lots of good passages in there of course

203
00:09:55,639 --> 00:09:52,919
but equally will a lot of bad ones let's

204
00:09:59,239 --> 00:09:55,649
examine one more now now most Christians

205
00:10:02,989 --> 00:09:59,249
claim that their God is omnipotent

206
00:10:05,839 --> 00:10:02,999
meaning all-powerful omniscient meaning

207
00:10:08,599 --> 00:10:05,849
all-knowing and also another word

208
00:10:11,589 --> 00:10:08,609
meaning all loving so let's just like

209
00:10:17,359 --> 00:10:11,599
one little passage here this is from

210
00:10:19,009 --> 00:10:17,369
Exodus four and then Moses took his wife

211
00:10:23,419 --> 00:10:19,019
and his sons and set them on a donkey

212
00:10:25,189 --> 00:10:23,429
and he returned to the land of Egypt and

213
00:10:28,339 --> 00:10:25,199
then it goes on to say that the Lord met

214
00:10:30,439 --> 00:10:28,349
Moses and sought to kill him now let's

215
00:10:32,809 --> 00:10:30,449
look at that what can we find wrong with

216
00:10:34,519 --> 00:10:32,819
that firstly Moses was when is that his

217
00:10:36,979 --> 00:10:34,529
best profit no doubt that Moses was a

218
00:10:39,349 --> 00:10:36,989
trying to fulfill all of God's wishes so

219
00:10:41,809 --> 00:10:39,359
Moses was his best friend and God sought

220
00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:41,819
to kill him does that indicate him or

221
00:10:50,869 --> 00:10:45,569
loving God and this look at the word

222
00:10:52,699 --> 00:10:50,879
sort the Lord sought to kill him so

223
00:10:54,889 --> 00:10:52,709
clearly the Lord intruder was unable to

224
00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:54,899
kill him so is that something that an

225
00:10:59,469 --> 00:10:57,569
all-powerful God would do so you can see

226
00:11:03,379 --> 00:10:59,479
another of the difficulties that

227
00:11:05,569 --> 00:11:03,389
atheists and in fact i would even claim

228
00:11:08,989 --> 00:11:05,579
to say any person who's capable and

229
00:11:14,009 --> 00:11:08,999
analyzing this book on its merits the

230
00:11:22,739 --> 00:11:20,189
now I'm going to look at the claim that

231
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:22,749
a lot of Christians make and that is

232
00:11:26,729 --> 00:11:24,730
that it's the afterlife that causes them

233
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:26,739
to be moral the fact that they might be

234
00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:29,050
called in an afterlife to be accountable

235
00:11:33,449 --> 00:11:31,360
for their actions let's examine that

236
00:11:35,340 --> 00:11:33,459
claim again to see whether we can

237
00:11:38,879 --> 00:11:35,350
determine how affected religion is in

238
00:11:41,699 --> 00:11:38,889
making us good firstly does anyone

239
00:11:43,739 --> 00:11:41,709
remember professor dr. Reverend John

240
00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:43,749
Lennox who visited Sydney last year and

241
00:11:50,699 --> 00:11:47,529
participated in some debates well he was

242
00:11:52,199 --> 00:11:50,709
asked from the radio what why you

243
00:11:53,429 --> 00:11:52,209
thought there was an afterlife he said

244
00:11:55,859 --> 00:11:53,439
were being a mathematician and a

245
00:11:58,259 --> 00:11:55,869
scientist I go by the evidence and the

246
00:11:59,879 --> 00:11:58,269
evidence I have is that if there's no

247
00:12:01,979 --> 00:11:59,889
afterlife Hitler would have got away

248
00:12:06,299 --> 00:12:01,989
with his crimes and it's unacceptable so

249
00:12:07,859 --> 00:12:06,309
it must be wrong well scientists don't

250
00:12:11,069 --> 00:12:07,869
call it evidence scientists call that

251
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:11,079
wishful thinking so if you're examining

252
00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:13,569
the claims of a religious person you

253
00:12:16,199 --> 00:12:14,649
need to work out whether there really

254
00:12:20,970 --> 00:12:16,209
evidence based or whether they're

255
00:12:23,429 --> 00:12:20,980
wishful thinking let's see whether it

256
00:12:25,259 --> 00:12:23,439
makes priests we know very well that

257
00:12:29,519 --> 00:12:25,269
there's a much higher rate of child

258
00:12:31,019 --> 00:12:29,529
abuse among priests in most of the

259
00:12:32,609 --> 00:12:31,029
Catholic Church most of the Christian

260
00:12:36,419 --> 00:12:32,619
churches including n quickens and

261
00:12:38,220 --> 00:12:36,429
Catholics unfortunately so clearly the

262
00:12:41,730 --> 00:12:38,230
threat of a retribution the afterlife

263
00:12:44,069 --> 00:12:41,740
doesn't seem to work let's not let's not

264
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:44,079
limited to Christian religions there was

265
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:46,569
a teacher in Africa who made the teddy

266
00:12:53,249 --> 00:12:48,490
bear Muhammad and she was severely

267
00:12:55,739 --> 00:12:53,259
punished by the resident Muslims who

268
00:12:58,019 --> 00:12:55,749
impose Sharia law there and she would

269
00:12:59,460 --> 00:12:58,029
have probably been staying today that it

270
00:13:02,220 --> 00:12:59,470
wasn't that the intervention of Western

271
00:13:05,249 --> 00:13:02,230
countries instead of Saudi Arabia a

272
00:13:08,340 --> 00:13:05,259
young couple was raped both of them by

273
00:13:12,769 --> 00:13:08,350
those upholding religion and in Pakistan

274
00:13:15,629 --> 00:13:12,779
as a similar case where a woman and her

275
00:13:16,090 --> 00:13:15,639
friend would gain raped by people that

276
00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:16,100
were known

277
00:13:21,519 --> 00:13:18,470
and was only after Western outcry that

278
00:13:24,129 --> 00:13:21,529
the Pakistani government finally decided

279
00:13:25,449 --> 00:13:24,139
to pursue the rapists after that point

280
00:13:29,769 --> 00:13:25,459
they locked up the woman and let the

281
00:13:32,319 --> 00:13:29,779
rapist go free so how effective do you

282
00:13:36,249 --> 00:13:32,329
think religion is in giving us good

283
00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:36,259
morals with look at carries they can

284
00:13:40,990 --> 00:13:38,480
commit whatever crimes they like on

285
00:13:44,980 --> 00:13:41,000
earth in this life as long as they

286
00:13:46,629 --> 00:13:44,990
confess and repent before they die if so

287
00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:46,639
they can get into heaven anyway so what

288
00:13:52,420 --> 00:13:50,870
sort of use would that be Mormons can be

289
00:13:54,519 --> 00:13:52,430
praying into a half as long as their

290
00:13:57,939 --> 00:13:54,529
relatives donate 50 thousand dollars to

291
00:14:02,460 --> 00:13:57,949
the church so what sort of morality is

292
00:14:06,699 --> 00:14:02,470
that and if you go to the Steiner school

293
00:14:08,590 --> 00:14:06,709
they teach their cripples all sorts of

294
00:14:11,050 --> 00:14:08,600
people in wheelchairs and with mental

295
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:11,060
deficiencies they teach them all sorts

296
00:14:15,309 --> 00:14:12,410
of things that they can't possibly do

297
00:14:18,999 --> 00:14:15,319
the theory being that it's preparing

298
00:14:21,699 --> 00:14:19,009
them for the next life so how moral is

299
00:14:25,449 --> 00:14:21,709
that and something said that Hitler and

300
00:14:28,689 --> 00:14:25,459
Stalin glowing examples of atheists and

301
00:14:31,780 --> 00:14:28,699
the type of things they do well know the

302
00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:31,790
motto of the German SS was God with us

303
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:33,649
which was written on every belt back

304
00:14:41,439 --> 00:14:37,730
belt buckle and if you mentioned Hitler

305
00:14:42,879 --> 00:14:41,449
and Stalin you hardly forget Japan the

306
00:14:46,079 --> 00:14:42,889
other partner in the Second World War

307
00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:46,089
and for the Japanese of course worshiped

308
00:14:50,590 --> 00:14:48,560
the Sun God and the Emperor as their

309
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:50,600
divine beings and part of the Shinto

310
00:14:55,420 --> 00:14:53,110
religion and they use that to justify

311
00:14:58,179 --> 00:14:55,430
all the crimes they committed by

312
00:15:00,040 --> 00:14:58,189
murdering thousands of millions of

313
00:15:02,230 --> 00:15:00,050
civilians in the Second World War baking

314
00:15:07,980 --> 00:15:02,240
in China and career and throughout Asia

315
00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:07,990
and Pearl Harbor and Australia as well

316
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:10,399
and not only that but you might have

317
00:15:15,370 --> 00:15:12,050
heard of the rape of nanking with the

318
00:15:17,259 --> 00:15:15,380
Japanese soldiers went there and raped

319
00:15:19,329 --> 00:15:17,269
virtually all of the young women at the

320
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:19,339
chinese city of Nanking all in the name

321
00:15:28,059 --> 00:15:23,600
of upholding the Emperor's glory and you

322
00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:28,069
might also notice I found where the 6800

323
00:15:30,390 --> 00:15:28,510
Sevilla

324
00:15:31,980 --> 00:15:30,400
committed suicide on the orders of the

325
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:31,990
Emperor as the Americans were poaching

326
00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:34,090
on the basis it was better for them to

327
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:36,070
dive and to be captured by the Americans

328
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:37,690
I could go on and on there are so many

329
00:15:44,730 --> 00:15:40,930
examples of this the evangelists in the

330
00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:44,740
USA Ted Haggard was caught buying

331
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:46,990
crystal methamphetamine from a gay

332
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:51,850
prostitute so what sort of morals has

333
00:15:58,410 --> 00:15:57,040
his religion bestowed him with so by now

334
00:16:03,470 --> 00:15:58,420
you're probably feeling pretty

335
00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:03,480
discouraged about your religion maybe

336
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:05,830
but I don't want to have it entirely

337
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:08,290
depressing evening so maybe we'll we can

338
00:16:17,060 --> 00:16:10,000
bring something a little bit brighter

339
00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:17,070
into it so we've examined how effective

340
00:16:22,650 --> 00:16:19,420
religions are in providing morals for

341
00:16:24,180 --> 00:16:22,660
their for their followers now we're

342
00:16:26,430 --> 00:16:24,190
going to look at the theory because

343
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:26,440
science goes on evidence and theory

344
00:16:32,250 --> 00:16:28,290
we're going to look at the theory of

345
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:32,260
morals now and we're going to say that

346
00:16:36,330 --> 00:16:34,330
why the religious people believe that

347
00:16:37,770 --> 00:16:36,340
morals come from God it's because lots

348
00:16:39,420 --> 00:16:37,780
of philosophers around the world and

349
00:16:41,580 --> 00:16:39,430
throughout history have thought into

350
00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:41,590
their mind to say why am i religious and

351
00:16:44,820 --> 00:16:42,670
the best they could come up with

352
00:16:48,510 --> 00:16:44,830
traditionally is saying is like it's

353
00:16:49,950 --> 00:16:48,520
good to do good and duty for judy's say

354
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:49,960
these are all sayings by famous

355
00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:53,290
philosophers and even the American bill

356
00:16:58,320 --> 00:16:54,910
of rights as we hold that these rights

357
00:16:59,910 --> 00:16:58,330
are self-evident what this shows us is

358
00:17:01,920 --> 00:16:59,920
that if you look inside your mind and

359
00:17:04,170 --> 00:17:01,930
say what makes me do good things or make

360
00:17:06,930 --> 00:17:04,180
makes my colleagues and Friends do good

361
00:17:09,090 --> 00:17:06,940
things you don't know you can't tell by

362
00:17:13,790 --> 00:17:09,100
introspection respects in looking into

363
00:17:16,290 --> 00:17:13,800
your own thoughts so that fails however

364
00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:16,300
science has provided many of the answers

365
00:17:23,310 --> 00:17:19,390
to these questions philosophy hasn't

366
00:17:25,949 --> 00:17:23,320
been science has I supply claimed for

367
00:17:28,050 --> 00:17:25,959
example we know lots of things about the

368
00:17:31,020 --> 00:17:28,060
mind the mind is an activity of the

369
00:17:34,410 --> 00:17:31,030
brain that's clearly established by

370
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:34,420
science and the main is that the mind

371
00:17:37,770 --> 00:17:36,010
and the brain are limited by their

372
00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:37,780
physical location are you inside a

373
00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:40,150
person's skull

374
00:17:45,690 --> 00:17:43,990
brain case and it doesn't have any

375
00:17:47,490 --> 00:17:45,700
existence outside for example when I'm

376
00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:47,500
thinking if something disturbs in my

377
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:50,020
brain it'll affect my thoughts but if

378
00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:52,960
whatever goes on outside my head whether

379
00:17:57,390 --> 00:17:54,550
it's above it or beside it has no effect

380
00:17:59,790 --> 00:17:57,400
whatever on what I'm thinking so that so

381
00:18:04,080 --> 00:17:59,800
my consciousness and reasoning goes on

382
00:18:08,430 --> 00:18:04,090
inside my head secondly the location in

383
00:18:10,050 --> 00:18:08,440
time of the mind wall process that this

384
00:18:11,730 --> 00:18:10,060
physical mind are physically limited the

385
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:11,740
existence of the brain according to

386
00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:14,410
science so before you'll concede there's

387
00:18:22,290 --> 00:18:18,400
no possibility of the mind thinking or

388
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:22,300
remembering anything and after you die

389
00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:24,310
after the gray matter stop conducting

390
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:27,520
electricity and chemical reactions and

391
00:18:32,940 --> 00:18:30,370
decays away again there's no possibility

392
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:32,950
of that consciousness surviving and

393
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:35,890
doing anything so that so the physical

394
00:18:39,930 --> 00:18:37,930
location within the skull rules have

395
00:18:43,140 --> 00:18:39,940
estill travel and claims like that and

396
00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:43,150
on the time basis that limitations to

397
00:18:47,790 --> 00:18:44,920
the duration of the brain exists rules

398
00:18:49,650 --> 00:18:47,800
out things like past lives and after

399
00:18:52,350 --> 00:18:49,660
lives so I'm sorry if you're counting on

400
00:18:54,810 --> 00:18:52,360
something on a reward in heaven there's

401
00:18:57,990 --> 00:18:54,820
no possibility of that and how sure are

402
00:19:00,810 --> 00:18:58,000
we about well of all the creatures that

403
00:19:02,970 --> 00:19:00,820
have ever lived and have had a brain if

404
00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:02,980
you add it up at something the order of

405
00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:05,380
100 billion which is a fairly large

406
00:19:10,050 --> 00:19:07,980
number you would take a factor of 10

407
00:19:11,790 --> 00:19:10,060
that's apparently the number of

408
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:11,800
creatures that have existed that have

409
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:14,290
had a central nervous system and in

410
00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:16,930
every case their minders require the

411
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:18,550
support of a brain their blood vessels

412
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:20,770
and breathing apparatus and I just

413
00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:22,960
evaporate of night feeding the brain so

414
00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:26,620
if you want to compare evidence for a

415
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:29,800
physical brain supporting a mind to mind

416
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:31,570
existing outside the brain the evidence

417
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:34,930
is something like 100 billion 20 and if

418
00:19:38,370 --> 00:19:36,370
you don't find that convincing than I'd

419
00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:38,380
like to ask what number you would find

420
00:19:45,540 --> 00:19:41,950
convincing so after lives are out these

421
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:45,550
are the findings of science next we find

422
00:19:49,290 --> 00:19:47,050
that the brain is fully dependent on a

423
00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:49,300
physical support and hence the mind for

424
00:19:53,210 --> 00:19:51,460
example an oxygen supply if you drown

425
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:53,220
someone they certainly stop thinking

426
00:19:59,090 --> 00:19:55,280
it's affected by alcohol and drugs and

427
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:59,100
requires nutrients if it if the if it

428
00:20:03,049 --> 00:20:00,240
was otherwise then it would have a

429
00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:03,059
common defense in court your honor you

430
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:04,559
say that my blood alcohol was the point

431
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:06,690
oh five but it didn't affect my driving

432
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:09,570
because my mind exists independent of my

433
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:11,520
body known as ever used theft offenses

434
00:20:14,659 --> 00:20:12,690
far as I know certainly known as ever

435
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:14,669
succeeded with it so further evidence

436
00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:16,650
for these are all things that science

437
00:20:21,950 --> 00:20:19,289
has taught us about the mind we also

438
00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:21,960
know that everything apparently about

439
00:20:27,770 --> 00:20:24,390
the human body in fact all animals is a

440
00:20:31,789 --> 00:20:27,780
product of evolution and developed in

441
00:20:35,210 --> 00:20:31,799
order to benefit survival and it's quite

442
00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:35,220
clear that all of our behavior developed

443
00:20:39,460 --> 00:20:36,780
in order to benefit survival have

444
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:39,470
survival value and morals and ethics and

445
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:41,760
cultural systems are all in the same

446
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:45,330
category so it's easy to show that

447
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:47,970
through for example game theory and the

448
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:49,650
study of groups of people interacting

449
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:54,240
that human beings will have altruistic

450
00:20:58,100 --> 00:20:56,250
attributes and selfish attributes and

451
00:20:59,419 --> 00:20:58,110
you can show while modeling the

452
00:21:01,640 --> 00:20:59,429
different bits of behavior that if

453
00:21:03,590 --> 00:21:01,650
you've got a proof of people less than

454
00:21:05,090 --> 00:21:03,600
about 150 people that's where each

455
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:05,100
person can know most of the other

456
00:21:10,430 --> 00:21:09,090
individuals and that means that if

457
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:10,440
someone tricks you they won't get away

458
00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:12,510
with it refers you remember them that's

459
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:15,150
that's why little cities like springwood

460
00:21:19,789 --> 00:21:17,490
are probably more open and trusting than

461
00:21:21,620 --> 00:21:19,799
places like brazil and sydney where i

462
00:21:24,169 --> 00:21:21,630
live where you can't possibly remember

463
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:24,179
everyone's face and past behavior so

464
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:27,090
they can get away with more so the

465
00:21:32,210 --> 00:21:29,760
bottom line is that we know where epochs

466
00:21:34,970 --> 00:21:32,220
and morals come from they there in

467
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:34,980
support of survival and we know that the

468
00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:38,010
method of passing down is through

469
00:21:42,049 --> 00:21:39,840
several mechanisms the first is genes

470
00:21:44,510 --> 00:21:42,059
which is packages of DNA from the

471
00:21:45,980 --> 00:21:44,520
parents passed on to the children and

472
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:45,990
the second one is means which is

473
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:48,090
packages of behavior purse down from

474
00:21:52,159 --> 00:21:50,610
parents and society to children so if

475
00:21:55,730 --> 00:21:52,169
you want to know where your morals come

476
00:21:59,060 --> 00:21:55,740
from the y is for survival value in a

477
00:22:01,220 --> 00:21:59,070
group of people as we were evolving say

478
00:22:03,860 --> 00:22:01,230
a hundred thousand to a million years

479
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:03,870
ago and the how is passed down by genes

480
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:07,650
memes so to summarize that a part of the

481
00:22:13,070 --> 00:22:11,280
talk we do in fact know where morals and

482
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:13,080
ethics came from let me give you a

483
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:15,330
simple example of survival value imagine

484
00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:19,890
we butter a tried in the jungle and the

485
00:22:23,180 --> 00:22:21,809
chief is worried about getting stabbed

486
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:23,190
while he's asleep which would have been

487
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:25,890
a very common thing so what what a

488
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:28,170
better way to protect himself than to

489
00:22:33,740 --> 00:22:30,480
invent an invisible friend who looks

490
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:33,750
after him while he's asleep and also is

491
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:35,850
going to punish anyone who tries to kill

492
00:22:39,950 --> 00:22:38,010
him even after they're dead by impeding

493
00:22:42,110 --> 00:22:39,960
an afterlife so we can also see how

494
00:22:59,680 --> 00:22:42,120
religions came to be invented as they

495
00:23:25,670 --> 00:23:21,320
ready to go wanna get ripped off I'm at

496
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:25,680
Martin's here it's not it okay well

497
00:23:29,150 --> 00:23:27,090
thank you for the last friend i got on

498
00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:29,160
whether not in Lionel's lifelong buddies

499
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:31,110
like martin i have i've not convinced in

500
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:34,310
a resurrection yet but we're still wish

501
00:23:38,330 --> 00:23:36,570
well here's the topic can we be good

502
00:23:40,250 --> 00:23:38,340
enough without god and my understanding

503
00:23:42,410 --> 00:23:40,260
of a debate is that there's an assumed

504
00:23:45,310 --> 00:23:42,420
right that an audience has and that is

505
00:23:47,210 --> 00:23:45,320
that the speakers will stay on the topic

506
00:23:48,860 --> 00:23:47,220
that you've become here on a particular

507
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:48,870
topic not Chester here at general chat

508
00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:52,290
about God and etc etc so please it to em

509
00:23:56,180 --> 00:23:53,760
I both committed to that but secondly

510
00:23:58,670 --> 00:23:56,190
that we will you'll hear an actual

511
00:24:01,910 --> 00:23:58,680
engagement between us that the key idea

512
00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:01,920
is that the two ends raise the other

513
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:04,830
ends will actually try and answer this

514
00:24:09,140 --> 00:24:07,410
is harder to do a bit of above the mr.

515
00:24:10,730 --> 00:24:09,150
Bates where you end up with sort of

516
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:10,740
three separate talks with occasional

517
00:24:14,450 --> 00:24:12,330
polite abuse comments about the other

518
00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:14,460
person's position and so last week we

519
00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:16,710
organized at church attention but in low

520
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:18,720
to have a bit of interaction to try and

521
00:24:21,620 --> 00:24:20,010
make sure we knew something of where

522
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:21,630
each other was coming from so you get

523
00:24:26,930 --> 00:24:25,440
your money's worth hopefully well I

524
00:24:29,150 --> 00:24:26,940
guess tonight's topic is kind that at

525
00:24:33,710 --> 00:24:29,160
least in part do we need God to be good

526
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:33,720
I is it possible to be thoroughly good

527
00:24:37,670 --> 00:24:36,000
without god and at one level the answer

528
00:24:40,790 --> 00:24:37,680
that are so screaming us of course I

529
00:24:42,770 --> 00:24:40,800
rate this in my family some theoretical

530
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:42,780
anxious I'm just practical atheists who

531
00:24:46,490 --> 00:24:44,190
probably believe in God but live as if

532
00:24:48,740 --> 00:24:46,500
he is there isn't a god and of course it

533
00:24:50,210 --> 00:24:48,750
can be a pretty decent person and of

534
00:24:51,860 --> 00:24:50,220
course i could do exactly what it's done

535
00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:51,870
and find horrible atheists and go there

536
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:53,310
you go you see which I don't think

537
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:55,440
proves anything every team's got

538
00:24:59,840 --> 00:24:57,360
shockers every family's got

539
00:25:00,920 --> 00:24:59,850
embarrassments well certain my family's

540
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:00,930
mostly investment

541
00:25:07,550 --> 00:25:05,850
but them except my mom and dad but so I

542
00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:07,560
don't think much is gained by me just

543
00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:09,240
picking a number of horrendous atheists

544
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:11,520
who say quite explicitly that their

545
00:25:15,740 --> 00:25:13,650
belief that there is no purpose and no

546
00:25:16,910 --> 00:25:15,750
value in human life is the reason why

547
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:16,920
they did what they did but there are any

548
00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:19,050
number quite some famous ones but I

549
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:20,220
don't think we'll do that yet although

550
00:25:23,690 --> 00:25:21,360
if you want to ask me a question a

551
00:25:24,980 --> 00:25:23,700
question time you gave your life I like

552
00:25:26,330 --> 00:25:24,990
to raise three issues and hope that he

553
00:25:28,670 --> 00:25:26,340
and might address some of them he might

554
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:28,680
not have time the first was the first is

555
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:30,810
the trickiest and yet I learned this

556
00:25:38,150 --> 00:25:33,360
from atheists and I want to make that

557
00:25:39,650 --> 00:25:38,160
clear in 1975 I read some work by some

558
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:39,660
atheists and they taught me this point

559
00:25:47,630 --> 00:25:44,370
and it's this that without God the

560
00:25:50,780 --> 00:25:47,640
notion of goodness becomes almost empty

561
00:25:53,180 --> 00:25:50,790
of any serious value it becomes very

562
00:25:56,270 --> 00:25:53,190
difficult to argue for good in contrast

563
00:26:00,080 --> 00:25:56,280
to evil with any substance and any

564
00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:00,090
weights and any ordinance if there is no

565
00:26:05,150 --> 00:26:03,480
God on the whole the English atheists

566
00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:05,160
like Bertrand Russell and that are just

567
00:26:09,860 --> 00:26:07,470
a Pepin well they're English there Nancy

568
00:26:11,420 --> 00:26:09,870
boys you know and that they say there's

569
00:26:13,570 --> 00:26:11,430
no god but fundamentally they want to

570
00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:13,580
live apart from normally from sexually

571
00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:16,950
they want to live with roughly Christian

572
00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:18,870
values and this became clear a pic with

573
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:20,760
Bertrand Russell as he got older sort of

574
00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:22,290
whimpering sort of things about the

575
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:23,580
darkness of life and we just need some

576
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:26,970
charity and I was like Bertrand I'm

577
00:26:32,450 --> 00:26:30,690
afraid you can wish for it Ian obviously

578
00:26:34,910 --> 00:26:32,460
doesn't like the story about the IAM the

579
00:26:36,260 --> 00:26:34,920
Midianites getting such a hard time and

580
00:26:37,940 --> 00:26:36,270
I'd be happy to discuss that it's

581
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:37,950
difficult to deal with a complex story

582
00:26:41,540 --> 00:26:40,050
in a few seconds but Ian doesn't like

583
00:26:44,090 --> 00:26:41,550
the story of people being murdered or

584
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:44,100
raped well frankly so what it really

585
00:26:49,310 --> 00:26:46,650
doesn't like it what is the significance

586
00:26:52,750 --> 00:26:49,320
of the end within a genuinely gutsy

587
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:52,760
atheist point of view first principles

588
00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:55,470
if you get back to first principles of

589
00:27:02,390 --> 00:26:59,010
atheism we have roughly as best we can

590
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:02,400
understand it energy my understanding is

591
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:04,290
that matter is to form a way that energy

592
00:27:08,510 --> 00:27:05,370
works will call that energy and matter

593
00:27:10,250 --> 00:27:08,520
if you like cease to perhaps never have

594
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:10,260
started will grant that if you like how

595
00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:12,330
to imagine never started it's not going

596
00:27:15,030 --> 00:27:12,940
anywhere

597
00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:15,040
my purpose it's got no love is just here

598
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:18,910
and by a long series of accidents that

599
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:20,410
we might think are significant but

600
00:27:24,990 --> 00:27:23,890
aren't really you have life it's only

601
00:27:28,350 --> 00:27:25,000
here for a split second that will be

602
00:27:32,730 --> 00:27:28,360
gone before you know it and we are just

603
00:27:34,590 --> 00:27:32,740
a form of energy it is very difficult to

604
00:27:38,130 --> 00:27:34,600
go from that to say therefore you ought

605
00:27:42,390 --> 00:27:38,140
to treat these small packages of energy

606
00:27:43,890 --> 00:27:42,400
in any particular way quite a number of

607
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:43,900
atheists are willing to acknowledge all

608
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:45,970
we're left with his preferences and

609
00:27:51,090 --> 00:27:48,010
thank God well thank whatever thank

610
00:27:52,740 --> 00:27:51,100
energies that in the Western world

611
00:27:54,540 --> 00:27:52,750
anyhow you can appeal to a group of

612
00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:54,550
generally agreed moral principles like

613
00:28:00,270 --> 00:27:58,330
we don't like rape rightly but if you're

614
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:00,280
just a bunch of cells you've come from

615
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:01,570
know where you're going to know where

616
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:03,310
there's no ultimate significance in the

617
00:28:08,460 --> 00:28:05,310
whole thing it's just coming and going

618
00:28:10,050 --> 00:28:08,470
that's just the way it is Richard

619
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:10,060
Dawkins was asked one time interviewed

620
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:12,130
and people rang up this is in England

621
00:28:15,870 --> 00:28:14,170
and a woman began to complain and speak

622
00:28:17,790 --> 00:28:15,880
about what should she make in terms of

623
00:28:19,620 --> 00:28:17,800
Dawkins's point of view of the fact that

624
00:28:21,710 --> 00:28:19,630
she had lost her child he said basically

625
00:28:23,550 --> 00:28:21,720
get over it now he regretted that

626
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:23,560
because in that's exactly what you

627
00:28:30,270 --> 00:28:27,010
expect this is a meaningless purposeless

628
00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:30,280
existence English atheists on the whole

629
00:28:34,050 --> 00:28:31,510
and those are all from the tend to be

630
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:34,060
gutless and they want to draw a whole

631
00:28:37,670 --> 00:28:35,770
lot of moral orts that grow quite

632
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:37,680
naturally out of the Christian

633
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:41,170
understanding of what's really there you

634
00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:42,310
ought to be able to go naturally from

635
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:43,900
what you think to be what is really

636
00:28:47,970 --> 00:28:46,090
there first principles are the basic

637
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:47,980
foundations of stuff to what you believe

638
00:28:51,570 --> 00:28:49,600
about how you want to live there will be

639
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:51,580
some logical connection there is of

640
00:28:54,510 --> 00:28:53,410
course if Christian of these two now 40

641
00:28:59,100 --> 00:28:54,520
we're not debating that topic tonight

642
00:29:00,690 --> 00:28:59,110
I'd love to be or not but Christianity

643
00:29:01,950 --> 00:29:00,700
has this understanding at the very heart

644
00:29:05,970 --> 00:29:01,960
of the universe not just that there's a

645
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:05,980
god a lonely monad but there are three

646
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:10,630
people in a loving community who love

647
00:29:14,670 --> 00:29:11,650
each other

648
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:14,680
and this one when you work out well how

649
00:29:21,090 --> 00:29:16,240
then should we live in this person's

650
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:21,100
world where you live what matters well

651
00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:24,010
love is what matters people are what

652
00:29:32,730 --> 00:29:28,990
matters relationships are what matter it

653
00:29:35,850 --> 00:29:32,740
makes absolute logical sense if the

654
00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:35,860
first premise is true atheism on the

655
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:39,070
other hand faces this terrible jump they

656
00:29:43,170 --> 00:29:40,450
get away with it off because we all

657
00:29:45,660 --> 00:29:43,180
agree with them and they say we ought to

658
00:29:46,740 --> 00:29:45,670
treat people well amigo yes i'll tell

659
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:46,750
you the guy who taught me this it was

660
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:48,250
america's your poor Sartre not

661
00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:51,310
personally sadly but in one of his

662
00:29:54,390 --> 00:29:53,110
writings he has a story which

663
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:54,400
illustrates what he believes to be

664
00:29:59,100 --> 00:29:56,650
consistent thoughtful gutsy atheism as

665
00:30:01,040 --> 00:29:59,110
against romantic namby-pamby English

666
00:30:03,930 --> 00:30:01,050
atheism mind you view English I love you

667
00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:03,940
you know the world needs namby-pamby

668
00:30:10,350 --> 00:30:06,640
Englishman particularly in football

669
00:30:14,950 --> 00:30:13,180
sacré paints this picture it plain he's

670
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:14,960
driving presumably it's a Citroen

671
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:18,050
because he's French he's driving there

672
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:21,650
is a man hitchhiking his wet is cold the

673
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:26,000
man what do you do it well Santa says

674
00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:29,210
because he is worth nothing and there is

675
00:30:35,380 --> 00:30:32,560
no ultimate right or wrong it's

676
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:35,390
absolutely a valid thing to pull over

677
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:37,910
pick him up drive him right to his door

678
00:30:42,730 --> 00:30:40,730
go out of your way and drop him home it

679
00:30:45,010 --> 00:30:42,740
is equally as valid to swerve and run

680
00:30:47,650 --> 00:30:45,020
him over and kill him ICL it's quite

681
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:47,660
serious because he says you are worth

682
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:49,760
nothing he is worth noting he's going to

683
00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:52,130
be dead in a split second anyhow you've

684
00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:53,870
simply arrived at the destination early

685
00:31:00,190 --> 00:30:56,510
the problem is you see we have a bully

686
00:31:02,710 --> 00:31:00,200
of a culture the culture is a bully it

687
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:02,720
says we don't watch that behavior we

688
00:31:07,090 --> 00:31:05,510
will imprison you at that point we need

689
00:31:09,910 --> 00:31:07,100
to raise a voice against the bullying

690
00:31:11,470 --> 00:31:09,920
culture and say if that person is acted

691
00:31:13,660 --> 00:31:11,480
with integrity within his own value

692
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:13,670
system and it's been true to himself how

693
00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:16,130
to Jerry you impose your imperialistic

694
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:19,310
ancient values on them in the end you

695
00:31:23,170 --> 00:31:20,930
see with its atheists who raised with

696
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:23,180
great power and often with terrible

697
00:31:30,010 --> 00:31:27,530
despair the ultimate logical rational

698
00:31:32,650 --> 00:31:30,020
coherent conclusion that if in the end

699
00:31:36,550 --> 00:31:32,660
at base reaction there's just energy or

700
00:31:39,850 --> 00:31:36,560
just stuff it does have massive impact

701
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:39,860
on how you should then live so when

702
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:42,710
atheists speak of human rights they're

703
00:31:47,470 --> 00:31:44,330
seeing the trueness doesn't belong to

704
00:31:49,420 --> 00:31:47,480
them when we have the quotient American

705
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:49,430
substitution of public amid oppression

706
00:31:52,540 --> 00:31:51,410
American competition let's at least if

707
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:52,550
we should do with the old testament of

708
00:31:57,010 --> 00:31:55,250
would have finished the quarter we hold

709
00:32:01,150 --> 00:31:57,020
these truths to be self-evident that all

710
00:32:02,890 --> 00:32:01,160
men are created equal and they are

711
00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:02,900
endowed by their creator with certain

712
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:07,910
unalienable should have

713
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:10,530
if in the end you take the sauce out of

714
00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:12,330
it which is is because of God that

715
00:32:17,539 --> 00:32:14,910
people have these rights you've got to

716
00:32:19,789 --> 00:32:17,549
give up the rights as well what atheists

717
00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:19,799
consistently do is destroy the

718
00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:21,270
foundations remove the walls but they

719
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:24,960
want a floating roof and in the end

720
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:26,490
they've got to have enough guts to say

721
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:29,130
we don't own that roof right we're not

722
00:32:34,820 --> 00:32:31,679
going to claim old-fashioned Christian

723
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:34,830
values have enough gas to go at it I can

724
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:36,510
come back to that but I think in the end

725
00:32:40,130 --> 00:32:38,640
we've got to hear more than just we're

726
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:40,140
not like right there for the Bible's no

727
00:32:43,669 --> 00:32:42,570
good because it's got this story well it

728
00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:43,679
doesn't actually talk about the girls

729
00:32:45,980 --> 00:32:44,640
being right and there's a very good

730
00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:45,990
reason was a media nights were good

731
00:32:52,850 --> 00:32:50,390
today which we can get back to secondly

732
00:32:54,409 --> 00:32:52,860
if its treated without God goodness

733
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:54,419
actually becomes this life sort of

734
00:32:57,830 --> 00:32:55,890
valueless think it's really preferences

735
00:32:59,960 --> 00:32:57,840
I like rather than good or evil right or

736
00:33:01,730 --> 00:32:59,970
wrong the second thing in this I think

737
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:01,740
with this can be be good enough for that

738
00:33:08,330 --> 00:33:06,330
God is that without God when people talk

739
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:08,340
about goodness it's normally pretty

740
00:33:13,789 --> 00:33:11,730
bland stuff it's normally didn't murder

741
00:33:15,860 --> 00:33:13,799
anyone i generally paid most of my taxes

742
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:15,870
I occasionally have a few bucks of

743
00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:18,450
charities and then you have super Saints

744
00:33:23,570 --> 00:33:21,720
like Fred Hollows who is a very

745
00:33:25,070 --> 00:33:23,580
impressive very impressive guy and did

746
00:33:26,419 --> 00:33:25,080
some great work of which he learnt

747
00:33:27,740 --> 00:33:26,429
actually from a Jesuit priests that's

748
00:33:29,270 --> 00:33:27,750
what he first went to do that work in

749
00:33:32,810 --> 00:33:29,280
the significance of it in the center of

750
00:33:34,159 --> 00:33:32,820
Australia and I remember being amazed at

751
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:34,169
the school that I served that how

752
00:33:38,510 --> 00:33:36,690
impressed the people who knew nothing of

753
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:38,520
Christian history were with what Fred

754
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:40,410
did that he would go for a month or two

755
00:33:43,610 --> 00:33:42,210
sometimes too dangerous places to fix

756
00:33:46,159 --> 00:33:43,620
eyes and I was bad he did it and it was

757
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:46,169
impressive but see if you know anything

758
00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:49,890
about missionary history it's nothing he

759
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:52,260
had his dirty big huge hacen in North

760
00:33:56,299 --> 00:33:54,570
Sydney he still lived as a wealthy

761
00:33:57,650 --> 00:33:56,309
Australian do you remember when we

762
00:33:59,570 --> 00:33:57,660
started to hear about the hospital and

763
00:34:01,520 --> 00:33:59,580
addis ababa middle of ethiopia these two

764
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:01,530
doctors who went and lived there for

765
00:34:05,090 --> 00:34:03,840
decades when do we hear about them when

766
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:05,100
the husband died my needed a replacement

767
00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:07,200
front page of The Herald I remember

768
00:34:11,419 --> 00:34:08,609
reading about saying to my wife Shelly

769
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:11,429
these people have to be Christians only

770
00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:14,490
Christians would do that an atheist may

771
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:16,560
go to some time I'm nothing as a

772
00:34:19,710 --> 00:34:17,770
generalization they may be

773
00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:19,720
like this and like you know Fred Hollows

774
00:34:24,860 --> 00:34:22,240
super same this is what Christians have

775
00:34:27,570 --> 00:34:24,870
been doing for decades more recently

776
00:34:29,370 --> 00:34:27,580
slumdog sir that movie that came out and

777
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:29,380
on the front page of the hell there's a

778
00:34:33,690 --> 00:34:31,090
story about a couple who be living in a

779
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:33,700
slum their lawyers for 30 years in one

780
00:34:38,370 --> 00:34:36,550
room with us with a outside toilet that

781
00:34:40,020 --> 00:34:38,380
they share with other families they've

782
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:40,030
been there for 13 years they're bringing

783
00:34:43,950 --> 00:34:41,919
up the kids I'm really insane these

784
00:34:45,330 --> 00:34:43,960
people have to be Christians only

785
00:34:49,169 --> 00:34:45,340
Christians above this sort of heroic

786
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:49,179
dangerous stupid goodness we don't give

787
00:34:54,690 --> 00:34:51,610
a few facts to world vision but you

788
00:34:56,820 --> 00:34:54,700
hardly miss in the end they weren't in

789
00:34:58,640 --> 00:34:56,830
it unlike the Addis allover on the

790
00:35:01,880 --> 00:34:58,650
herald actually admitted it which was

791
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:01,890
remarkable now they tend not to do that

792
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:04,330
Albert Camus another great idea said

793
00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:07,390
this can I be a saint if God does not

794
00:35:13,050 --> 00:35:10,420
exist this is the only concrete problem

795
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:13,060
i know of today here i put in the

796
00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:15,850
context of the book the plague where is

797
00:35:19,110 --> 00:35:17,350
greater problem is fundamental in

798
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:19,120
different he said how do we get people

799
00:35:25,590 --> 00:35:22,510
who will have heroic virtue rise up and

800
00:35:27,870 --> 00:35:25,600
really reorder their lives if there's no

801
00:35:29,490 --> 00:35:27,880
God because in the end as he says your

802
00:35:31,170 --> 00:35:29,500
rank commit to your own personal ease

803
00:35:35,070 --> 00:35:31,180
with the occasional conscience salving

804
00:35:36,510 --> 00:35:35,080
act of goodness as a generalization what

805
00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:36,520
you get with Jesus of course when you

806
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:38,110
ask if you do ask Jesus what does it

807
00:35:42,750 --> 00:35:40,930
mean to be good he says this this is

808
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:42,760
from the Sermon on the Mount such a

809
00:35:52,980 --> 00:35:48,610
strange girl is that a possible okay he

810
00:35:54,510 --> 00:35:52,990
says so what if you love your friends he

811
00:35:59,760 --> 00:35:54,520
said the worst sinners in the world of

812
00:36:01,730 --> 00:35:59,770
their friends love your enemies do good

813
00:36:05,060 --> 00:36:01,740
to those who hate you

814
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:05,070
pray for those who mistreat you and then

815
00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:06,690
you will be true sons of your father who

816
00:36:12,380 --> 00:36:08,520
is kind to the ungracious of the

817
00:36:16,670 --> 00:36:12,390
ungrateful and the hood in terms of real

818
00:36:17,930 --> 00:36:16,680
robust world-changing heroic goodness in

819
00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:17,940
the end I think you do need something

820
00:36:24,109 --> 00:36:20,160
more than just a let's be nice but it's

821
00:36:25,430 --> 00:36:24,119
nice to be nice sort of you God the God

822
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:25,440
that Jesus speaks about and I'm were

823
00:36:30,020 --> 00:36:26,910
well aware and that need to have a great

824
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:30,030
time of this there's a zillion to be

825
00:36:33,290 --> 00:36:31,650
contenders and Christians are not fans

826
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:33,300
of religion the idea that we're talking

827
00:36:36,590 --> 00:36:35,040
about religion certain is a Christian

828
00:36:37,940 --> 00:36:36,600
I'm not as religious people that killed

829
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:37,950
Jesus it's normally religious people

830
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:41,490
that killed Christian messages religion

831
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:43,200
is not in itself a good thing at all in

832
00:36:46,970 --> 00:36:44,160
fact often that's quite a dangerous

833
00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:46,980
thing we're talking about God as he is

834
00:36:51,650 --> 00:36:48,960
and I taken his manager very clear in

835
00:36:53,300 --> 00:36:51,660
Jesus so in terms of the strengths of

836
00:36:55,580 --> 00:36:53,310
goodness a rather than bland goodness

837
00:36:58,130 --> 00:36:55,590
actually do need the God certainly Jesus

838
00:37:01,760 --> 00:36:58,140
speaks without of third and lastly can

839
00:37:04,130 --> 00:37:01,770
you be good enough for God in one very

840
00:37:07,370 --> 00:37:04,140
real sense assuming for the moment that

841
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:07,380
God is real in too many to talk about

842
00:37:14,090 --> 00:37:10,800
that for a few seconds the answer from

843
00:37:17,090 --> 00:37:14,100
Jesus is clearly no man comes up to

844
00:37:19,550 --> 00:37:17,100
Jesus is good master hold it what do you

845
00:37:22,460 --> 00:37:19,560
call me good he says no one is good but

846
00:37:24,170 --> 00:37:22,470
God alone we tend to use good in a river

847
00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:24,180
and when Jesus now let the intellect

848
00:37:32,060 --> 00:37:28,670
witness let's talk about being like God

849
00:37:33,950 --> 00:37:32,070
and what Jesus takes to view is that you

850
00:37:35,780 --> 00:37:33,960
and I all have trouble with God because

851
00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:35,790
we're not good enough for God and if God

852
00:37:39,650 --> 00:37:38,160
doesn't help us when we do stand before

853
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:39,660
him you are going to be in trouble and

854
00:37:43,340 --> 00:37:42,090
so much I should read without a shadow

855
00:37:46,180 --> 00:37:43,350
of a doubt to go to hell according to

856
00:37:48,170 --> 00:37:46,190
Jason I believe it so I'm a Christian

857
00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:48,180
the thought of me going to hell hardly

858
00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:50,160
ever crosses mine up with some reward in

859
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:51,780
the afterlife that's much more like

860
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:55,050
Islam than Christianity but what we have

861
00:38:00,200 --> 00:37:58,320
is a God who is gracious and says in

862
00:38:01,970 --> 00:38:00,210
your hopeless case you're very valuable

863
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:01,980
you're very precious you're very broken

864
00:38:09,050 --> 00:38:05,130
you're in my image with the damaged you

865
00:38:10,580 --> 00:38:09,060
did good you'd be bad but I love you and

866
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:10,590
I've done this thing in my son Jesus I

867
00:38:14,570 --> 00:38:11,450
can be

868
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:14,580
and so in a sense can we be good enough

869
00:38:19,490 --> 00:38:17,610
for god no can we be good enough without

870
00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:19,500
God good enough for what for Blanche

871
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:20,910
ordinary fairly boring life

872
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:24,690
self-justifying here we can do that can

873
00:38:51,830 --> 00:38:48,740
thanks for that response pnp which which

874
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:51,840
of your points will I address cuz you

875
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:54,450
said we do need a god to be good well

876
00:39:00,440 --> 00:38:57,690
I'd like to ask how you determined which

877
00:39:02,660 --> 00:39:00,450
God you need I find that most Christians

878
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:02,670
think that this is the one true God in

879
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:05,690
fact if we look at the website of the

880
00:39:10,220 --> 00:39:08,490
Springwood winmalee anglican church that

881
00:39:12,140 --> 00:39:10,230
discusses that topic at some length and

882
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:12,150
concludes that Christians are the ones

883
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:15,450
with the one true God how they reach the

884
00:39:19,850 --> 00:39:17,280
conclusion I'd like to know I've got

885
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:19,860
here a collection of holy books I've

886
00:39:23,330 --> 00:39:21,570
shown you the you know the old in the

887
00:39:25,550 --> 00:39:23,340
New Testament and you'll find that in

888
00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:25,560
that God says again in the game that

889
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:27,480
he's the one true God in fact the first

890
00:39:31,580 --> 00:39:29,490
four Commandments are dedicated not to

891
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:31,590
mankind's benefit but to God's benefit

892
00:39:37,130 --> 00:39:34,650
but you won't direct any graven images

893
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:37,140
and so forth so that's a pretty bad sign

894
00:39:43,220 --> 00:39:40,320
that God is looking out for us secondly

895
00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:43,230
I have a copy of the bhagavad-gita here

896
00:39:48,830 --> 00:39:45,780
which is the text that many of the

897
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:48,840
Eastern religions rely on that that and

898
00:39:59,900 --> 00:39:52,050
other ones let me read you a passage

899
00:40:03,110 --> 00:39:59,910
from that this is chapter 10 text five

900
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:03,120
and says all these various qualities of

901
00:40:09,650 --> 00:40:06,110
living beings are created by me alone

902
00:40:11,690 --> 00:40:09,660
that the speaker being Lord Krishna so

903
00:40:13,250 --> 00:40:11,700
again we see that the Eastern religions

904
00:40:15,380 --> 00:40:13,260
think that this is the one true god and

905
00:40:18,830 --> 00:40:15,390
then god is so jealousy cannot tolerate

906
00:40:21,410 --> 00:40:18,840
any other gods i have here a copy of the

907
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:21,420
Holy Quran let's see what it says about

908
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:27,890
one true God here we're in

909
00:40:35,689 --> 00:40:33,690
Sarah 43 section six when Jesus the Son

910
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:35,699
of Mary is held up as an example behold

911
00:40:41,299 --> 00:40:37,890
your people razor clemmer they're at in

912
00:40:45,259 --> 00:40:41,309
ridicule and say our our God's best or

913
00:40:46,219 --> 00:40:45,269
he so again that the Muslim God is

914
00:40:47,959 --> 00:40:46,229
saying it he's bigger and better than

915
00:40:50,209 --> 00:40:47,969
the other God you'll find that I've give

916
00:40:52,099 --> 00:40:50,219
you three examples there but they're in

917
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:52,109
my collection of holy books virtually

918
00:40:55,189 --> 00:40:53,729
every religion claims the same thing

919
00:40:58,459 --> 00:40:55,199
they put a lot of effort towards

920
00:41:02,269 --> 00:40:58,469
discounting the others so if if there

921
00:41:04,969 --> 00:41:02,279
was a real one true God his marketing

922
00:41:06,739 --> 00:41:04,979
strategy has been a dismal failure in

923
00:41:08,089 --> 00:41:06,749
fact it's faded into the background his

924
00:41:11,769 --> 00:41:08,099
holy books being totally

925
00:41:17,569 --> 00:41:16,279
now being referred to Jesus giving the

926
00:41:21,439 --> 00:41:17,579
good advice that we should turn the

927
00:41:23,870 --> 00:41:21,449
other cheek when someone wrongs you well

928
00:41:25,459 --> 00:41:23,880
that's the New Testament being at

929
00:41:27,529 --> 00:41:25,469
variance the old system because the Old

930
00:41:30,049 --> 00:41:27,539
Testament says you should take an eye

931
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:30,059
for an eye and a tooth for a tooth which

932
00:41:35,930 --> 00:41:31,650
is quite the opposite of turning the

933
00:41:37,489 --> 00:41:35,940
other cheek and in fact that's often

934
00:41:39,949 --> 00:41:37,499
called two tips attack which is an

935
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:39,959
expression used by secularists for

936
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:43,170
example Peter Singer and other humanists

937
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:46,410
who have studied of optimum human

938
00:41:51,979 --> 00:41:49,170
behavior in groups of various sizes has

939
00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:51,989
a book called tit for tat and that shows

940
00:41:56,449 --> 00:41:54,569
that when you're living in a society of

941
00:42:01,969 --> 00:41:56,459
a certain size with certain rules of

942
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:01,979
behavior your best strategy preferred

943
00:42:06,529 --> 00:42:04,410
when you if you meet a stranger you

944
00:42:10,009 --> 00:42:06,539
should firstly give them the opportunity

945
00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:10,019
to to be trusted but limiting your

946
00:42:13,849 --> 00:42:12,089
exposure and if they treat you well you

947
00:42:15,259 --> 00:42:13,859
treat them well in return and if they

948
00:42:18,949 --> 00:42:15,269
wrong you then you never trust them

949
00:42:21,529 --> 00:42:18,959
again so that's two for tat so that's so

950
00:42:23,420 --> 00:42:21,539
the Old Testament verses the new and the

951
00:42:25,099 --> 00:42:23,430
secular view says that tit for tat seems

952
00:42:27,049 --> 00:42:25,109
to be the best way to go not turning the

953
00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:27,059
other cheek gandy turned the other cheek

954
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:40,810
now which point will we address now

955
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:43,880
being spoke about the universe being

956
00:42:49,580 --> 00:42:46,170
just energy and matter and hence there's

957
00:42:52,370 --> 00:42:49,590
no origin of the term port or should in

958
00:42:54,590 --> 00:42:52,380
morals well I can only agree there and

959
00:42:57,410 --> 00:42:54,600
say that science however does tell us

960
00:42:59,570 --> 00:42:57,420
that the human mind exists as I said

961
00:43:01,760 --> 00:42:59,580
based on the brain which I explained in

962
00:43:03,110 --> 00:43:01,770
some detail by the way well with my

963
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:03,120
claims here if you're thinking I'm

964
00:43:08,630 --> 00:43:05,730
making assertions then you can go to my

965
00:43:09,890 --> 00:43:08,640
website well truth they org where some

966
00:43:12,020 --> 00:43:09,900
of these things are backed up in more

967
00:43:14,300 --> 00:43:12,030
detail or if you do a simple search in

968
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:14,310
Wikipedia or something like that you can

969
00:43:19,220 --> 00:43:17,210
find out further information anyway

970
00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:19,230
scientists know that the human mind is

971
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:22,110
the most complex item in the universe

972
00:43:26,750 --> 00:43:24,330
that has yet been discovered by man and

973
00:43:30,020 --> 00:43:26,760
it's the most amazing and astounding

974
00:43:31,460 --> 00:43:30,030
piece of computing power and the fact

975
00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:31,470
that it can be explained in terms of

976
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:33,390
chemistry and electrical signals doesn't

977
00:43:38,540 --> 00:43:35,640
listen at him any degree I think that

978
00:43:40,220 --> 00:43:38,550
ian is a kind of mysterion that means a

979
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:40,230
person who wants there to be mystery who

980
00:43:44,780 --> 00:43:41,850
doesn't want there to be explanations

981
00:43:47,780 --> 00:43:44,790
and I take a bit if scientists were to

982
00:43:49,430 --> 00:43:47,790
find an explanation for God that Ian

983
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:49,440
would then discount it and say I was not

984
00:43:54,410 --> 00:43:50,610
good enough it's got to be mysterious

985
00:43:57,050 --> 00:43:54,420
but of the unexplained because that's

986
00:44:00,680 --> 00:43:57,060
what mysterion's do so rather than

987
00:44:02,270 --> 00:44:00,690
relying on a mind which created the

988
00:44:04,130 --> 00:44:02,280
universe in which there's no evidence at

989
00:44:07,100 --> 00:44:04,140
all scientists and secularists say that

990
00:44:08,810 --> 00:44:07,110
the human mind is the most complex and

991
00:44:10,070 --> 00:44:08,820
admirable piece of engineering or

992
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:10,080
whatever you want to call it in the

993
00:44:14,780 --> 00:44:12,050
universe certainly not arriving through

994
00:44:18,530 --> 00:44:14,790
intelligent design and that is where

995
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:18,540
autzen should arrive from and if we look

996
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:20,880
at the way Lions behave in catching

997
00:44:25,610 --> 00:44:22,800
their prey clearly there's no ought

998
00:44:28,220 --> 00:44:25,620
gutting the behavior of a lion to have

999
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:28,230
say a baby zebra that it's chasing down

1000
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:30,720
to eat the lion has some what's in the

1001
00:44:35,630 --> 00:44:32,130
way it treats other Lions and the

1002
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:35,640
lioness and its family but it's a

1003
00:44:39,740 --> 00:44:38,370
weather aughts exist or not in the end

1004
00:44:40,730 --> 00:44:39,750
of this is purely a matter of survival

1005
00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:40,740
value and

1006
00:44:45,020 --> 00:44:42,720
depends on whether you're talking to

1007
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:45,030
someone in your in group that you need

1008
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:49,170
to respect and will get respect in

1009
00:44:52,430 --> 00:44:50,730
return or whether you're talking about

1010
00:44:56,090 --> 00:44:52,440
an out group that you can murder with no

1011
00:45:01,420 --> 00:44:56,100
consequences so questions at Port and

1012
00:45:04,820 --> 00:45:01,430
should have been well solved by science

1013
00:45:07,850 --> 00:45:04,830
so what sort of morals will secularists

1014
00:45:09,980 --> 00:45:07,860
come up with well because we know where

1015
00:45:12,050 --> 00:45:09,990
morals come from or scientists have

1016
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:12,060
shown that we're free to construct their

1017
00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:16,170
own morals and ethical systems and the

1018
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:18,720
way that most of us choose to do that is

1019
00:45:23,090 --> 00:45:21,570
called respect for sentient beings much

1020
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:23,100
based on the idea that I know that I

1021
00:45:28,490 --> 00:45:26,490
feel pleasure and pain and I know the

1022
00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:28,500
people around me also experience

1023
00:45:31,550 --> 00:45:29,730
pleasure and pain because they have a

1024
00:45:33,350 --> 00:45:31,560
brain scan their brains the same as mine

1025
00:45:35,780 --> 00:45:33,360
so the problem of other minds has been

1026
00:45:37,070 --> 00:45:35,790
solved by science not by philosophers we

1027
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:37,080
know other people have minds and other

1028
00:45:40,580 --> 00:45:38,880
animals have to a lesser degree they can

1029
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:40,590
Spanish pleasure and pain and we care

1030
00:45:45,740 --> 00:45:43,110
about their experiences therefore we

1031
00:45:50,830 --> 00:45:45,750
have respect for sentient beings it's

1032
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:50,840
the core paradigm of my philosophy and

1033
00:45:57,530 --> 00:45:55,010
that can be quantized in the study of

1034
00:46:00,320 --> 00:45:57,540
utilitarianism how many of you have

1035
00:46:02,359 --> 00:46:00,330
heard of utilitarianism okay that's

1036
00:46:06,170 --> 00:46:02,369
pretty well known well that basically

1037
00:46:08,359 --> 00:46:06,180
puts figures to the study of respect for

1038
00:46:10,970 --> 00:46:08,369
sentient beings and even their degree

1039
00:46:15,170 --> 00:46:10,980
perhaps so that for example with you but

1040
00:46:17,060 --> 00:46:15,180
a they're doing our analogies with

1041
00:46:18,770 --> 00:46:17,070
trolleys little stories Prague trolley

1042
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:18,780
ology with the trolleys route running

1043
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:20,310
down the hill on Rails and it's going to

1044
00:46:23,180 --> 00:46:21,810
kill one person on the railway tracks

1045
00:46:25,130 --> 00:46:23,190
and if you pull it leave you can divert

1046
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:25,140
the trolley and instead it'll kill three

1047
00:46:29,420 --> 00:46:26,850
other innocent people who are tied up on

1048
00:46:31,790 --> 00:46:29,430
the other track and should you do it the

1049
00:46:33,230 --> 00:46:31,800
churchmen would usually say now we

1050
00:46:35,870 --> 00:46:33,240
shouldn't intervene because it's God's

1051
00:46:37,370 --> 00:46:35,880
will whereas the secularist would say

1052
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:37,380
well you gotta weigh up the death of one

1053
00:46:42,590 --> 00:46:40,290
person against the death of three and if

1054
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:42,600
that's all there is to it maybe you

1055
00:46:46,490 --> 00:46:44,160
should divert the trolley but they could

1056
00:46:48,020 --> 00:46:46,500
also say that if you do that you might

1057
00:46:49,730 --> 00:46:48,030
not be trusted again so there are

1058
00:46:52,250 --> 00:46:49,740
factors on either side in any way you

1059
00:46:54,620 --> 00:46:52,260
can calculate to some extent

1060
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:54,630
the number of sentient beings affected

1061
00:46:58,490 --> 00:46:55,650
and the degree to which they are

1062
00:47:00,500 --> 00:46:58,500
affected and that's basically the system

1063
00:47:03,070 --> 00:47:00,510
of ethics that secularists and humorous

1064
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:03,080
and skeptics and so forth cannot wish

1065
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:08,130
and finally I'd like to address again

1066
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:11,250
the IP notion of goodness i think in

1067
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:13,050
made it quite clear that he believed

1068
00:47:18,190 --> 00:47:14,610
that without God there is no source of

1069
00:47:22,490 --> 00:47:18,200
goodness for people to follow well I

1070
00:47:25,610 --> 00:47:22,500
would just again hold up the Bible and

1071
00:47:27,110 --> 00:47:25,620
see what source of morals and goodness

1072
00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:27,120
that gives us and look at the core

1073
00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:28,710
paradigm of Christianity which of course

1074
00:47:33,020 --> 00:47:30,240
would be the crucifixion and the

1075
00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:33,030
attainment Christians described their

1076
00:47:37,070 --> 00:47:35,040
core Christian tradition being the

1077
00:47:39,530 --> 00:47:37,080
attainment something like this that

1078
00:47:41,810 --> 00:47:39,540
mankind and God had some sort of

1079
00:47:43,730 --> 00:47:41,820
covenants not exactly clear what that

1080
00:47:46,330 --> 00:47:43,740
was and when Adam ate the apple in the

1081
00:47:48,860 --> 00:47:46,340
Garden of Eden he bragged that covenant

1082
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:48,870
whether he was but it was really eating

1083
00:47:53,330 --> 00:47:50,250
an apple was forbidden or whether he was

1084
00:47:55,010 --> 00:47:53,340
having illegal illicit sex or whether he

1085
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:55,020
broke some other law that's not exactly

1086
00:47:58,700 --> 00:47:56,880
spelled out but in any case he broke

1087
00:48:01,820 --> 00:47:58,710
something that that God thought he had

1088
00:48:04,220 --> 00:48:01,830
promised to do or not do and every new

1089
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:04,230
generation since then even the little

1090
00:48:09,350 --> 00:48:07,050
babies are born with ancestral sin that

1091
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:09,360
had to be cleansed in some way that's an

1092
00:48:13,970 --> 00:48:11,520
extremely obnoxious idea to a secularist

1093
00:48:15,470 --> 00:48:13,980
who believes that people are not

1094
00:48:18,130 --> 00:48:15,480
inherently bad and he don't need to

1095
00:48:20,900 --> 00:48:18,140
punish babies for what their parents did

1096
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:20,910
anyway God came to the rescue he so

1097
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:22,170
loved the world that He gave His only

1098
00:48:30,590 --> 00:48:27,210
begotten Son Jesus etc etc and tortured

1099
00:48:32,750 --> 00:48:30,600
him to death and at the belief that this

1100
00:48:35,380 --> 00:48:32,760
one able him to pardon this supposedly

1101
00:48:38,510 --> 00:48:35,390
guilty mankind now that's the core of

1102
00:48:39,830 --> 00:48:38,520
Christianity I've had many Christians

1103
00:48:41,330 --> 00:48:39,840
that I've debated would say that that's

1104
00:48:43,730 --> 00:48:41,340
their core belief me that was overturned

1105
00:48:45,110 --> 00:48:43,740
they'd give up Christianity so here's

1106
00:48:48,580 --> 00:48:45,120
your time here that I'm to put that to

1107
00:48:50,660 --> 00:48:48,590
the test now let's just think about that

1108
00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:50,670
translate it into modern-day terms

1109
00:48:57,710 --> 00:48:54,900
there's a court process a court trial

1110
00:48:59,059 --> 00:48:57,720
going on in the downing centre and the

1111
00:49:02,150 --> 00:48:59,069
judge

1112
00:49:04,969 --> 00:49:02,160
is I find that you John Smith robbed the

1113
00:49:07,339 --> 00:49:04,979
bank therefore i sees you Freddie no

1114
00:49:09,049 --> 00:49:07,349
walking along the footpath an innocent

1115
00:49:12,769 --> 00:49:09,059
third party and sentence you to life

1116
00:49:15,140 --> 00:49:12,779
with hard labor most people would look

1117
00:49:17,329 --> 00:49:15,150
at the judges insane and lock him away

1118
00:49:20,959 --> 00:49:17,339
but Christians holders up as their core

1119
00:49:22,370 --> 00:49:20,969
belief and their source of morality so

1120
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:22,380
if anyone can explain that to me I'd

1121
00:49:27,979 --> 00:49:25,410
like to hear it and all I can suggest is

1122
00:49:30,469 --> 00:49:27,989
that they they call that God's love

1123
00:49:32,539 --> 00:49:30,479
God's showing his love for mankind when

1124
00:49:33,890 --> 00:49:32,549
in fact it's torture and if Christians

1125
00:49:36,049 --> 00:49:33,900
don't know the difference between love

1126
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:36,059
and torture and perhaps that goes part

1127
00:49:40,430 --> 00:49:37,680
way to explaining what the greatest

1128
00:49:43,009 --> 00:49:40,440
Christian nation on earth did in Abu

1129
00:49:45,949 --> 00:49:43,019
Ghraib prison and Guantanamo Bay

1130
00:49:51,319 --> 00:49:45,959
detention center not knowing the

1131
00:49:53,329 --> 00:49:51,329
difference between love and torture so

1132
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:53,339
when people hold up the book and say

1133
00:49:57,229 --> 00:49:55,650
that is our source of morals I just say

1134
00:50:07,130 --> 00:49:57,239
that we need to have more explanation

1135
00:50:08,989 --> 00:50:07,140
please okay yeah one can ask the

1136
00:50:10,759 --> 00:50:08,999
question why is it that such a large

1137
00:50:14,589 --> 00:50:10,769
slice of humanity believes in a God of

1138
00:50:18,109 --> 00:50:14,599
some sort I touched on this before and

1139
00:50:20,499 --> 00:50:18,119
it does seem to be two secularists or

1140
00:50:22,999 --> 00:50:20,509
scientific thinkers to be inexplicable

1141
00:50:27,140 --> 00:50:23,009
why people believe in something that is

1142
00:50:29,509 --> 00:50:27,150
so very clearly and obviously an

1143
00:50:30,890 --> 00:50:29,519
appalling source of morals and they

1144
00:50:36,559 --> 00:50:30,900
think that's where their morals come

1145
00:50:38,319 --> 00:50:36,569
from however that science has provided a

1146
00:50:41,709 --> 00:50:38,329
possible answer to this as well and

1147
00:50:44,930 --> 00:50:41,719
that's based on the layered brain

1148
00:50:47,599 --> 00:50:44,940
because earlier animals and the

1149
00:50:50,059 --> 00:50:47,609
evolutionary process of course had

1150
00:50:51,410 --> 00:50:50,069
what's called a reptilian cortex was the

1151
00:50:53,749 --> 00:50:51,420
which is the inner part of their brain

1152
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:53,759
so the reptilian brain in a part of

1153
00:50:58,699 --> 00:50:55,650
their brain and node cortex and that

1154
00:51:00,079 --> 00:50:58,709
means that typically reptiles react to

1155
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:00,089
what's around them in a very basic level

1156
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:01,650
without going through any sort of

1157
00:51:08,349 --> 00:51:05,249
analysis and as mammals developed and

1158
00:51:10,969 --> 00:51:08,359
the primates and humans they developed a

1159
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:10,979
cortex on the outside of the reptilian

1160
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:11,770
brain

1161
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:13,930
and other layers in between and the

1162
00:51:19,020 --> 00:51:15,730
cortex is capable of conscious and

1163
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:19,030
analytical thought and can actually put

1164
00:51:29,420 --> 00:51:22,810
together a debate or write a book or

1165
00:51:32,220 --> 00:51:29,430
build an aeroplane or whatever and

1166
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:32,230
behavioral studies show us that young

1167
00:51:37,500 --> 00:51:35,170
animals tend to believe what their

1168
00:51:39,630 --> 00:51:37,510
parents tell them the reason being of

1169
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:39,640
course that if you've got a young monkey

1170
00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:41,050
that's just born on the branch and his

1171
00:51:44,370 --> 00:51:42,400
mother shows how to hang on to the

1172
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:44,380
branch and if it hangs under the branch

1173
00:51:47,550 --> 00:51:45,730
it'll live to grow up and then perhaps

1174
00:51:49,290 --> 00:51:47,560
develops some more thinking skills

1175
00:51:51,270 --> 00:51:49,300
afterwards but if the baby says I'm

1176
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:51,280
going to put this scientific theory to

1177
00:51:55,490 --> 00:51:53,770
the test and let go of the branch that's

1178
00:51:58,440 --> 00:51:55,500
definitely bad for your survival value

1179
00:52:00,570 --> 00:51:58,450
so therefore young animals and humans

1180
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:00,580
are programmed to trust what their

1181
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:03,970
parents tell them Soviets look at the

1182
00:52:07,740 --> 00:52:06,160
development of a child that grows up in

1183
00:52:09,810 --> 00:52:07,750
a religious household and perhaps is

1184
00:52:12,930 --> 00:52:09,820
taken to church by the parents in Sunday

1185
00:52:15,810 --> 00:52:12,940
school it gets ingrained into the

1186
00:52:17,850 --> 00:52:15,820
deepest layers of its brain all these

1187
00:52:19,530 --> 00:52:17,860
ideas about a supernatural being and

1188
00:52:21,780 --> 00:52:19,540
there being one true God and one shoe

1189
00:52:25,950 --> 00:52:21,790
holy book and all the morals flow from

1190
00:52:27,540 --> 00:52:25,960
it and then later on at some sort of

1191
00:52:29,910 --> 00:52:27,550
maturity perhaps in high school or

1192
00:52:33,150 --> 00:52:29,920
university that child learns critical

1193
00:52:35,660 --> 00:52:33,160
thinking skills either by attending a

1194
00:52:38,190 --> 00:52:35,670
course on critical thinking or perhaps

1195
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:38,200
reading a book about it or perhaps just

1196
00:52:42,180 --> 00:52:40,090
some scientific training that teaches

1197
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:42,190
them how to analyze and test things and

1198
00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:43,570
say what's the evidence for that and

1199
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:47,430
what's the theory behind there so that

1200
00:52:53,910 --> 00:52:51,370
when the teenager perhaps learns

1201
00:52:57,690 --> 00:52:53,920
critical thinking skills it's very

1202
00:52:59,100 --> 00:52:57,700
difficult for that person to challenge

1203
00:53:01,410 --> 00:52:59,110
what they've already learned because

1204
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:01,420
that's a to deeper level so the idea is

1205
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:03,010
that you can only challenge what you

1206
00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:04,450
learn after you learn your critical

1207
00:53:07,770 --> 00:53:06,550
thinking skills that's a bit of an

1208
00:53:11,820 --> 00:53:07,780
approximation but there's some evidence

1209
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:11,830
in favor of that therefore many of us

1210
00:53:17,700 --> 00:53:14,050
who have strong religious beliefs

1211
00:53:19,380 --> 00:53:17,710
against any sort of logic or reason are

1212
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:19,390
probably doing so because they were

1213
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:22,090
indoctrinated as children and I'd like

1214
00:53:26,670 --> 00:53:24,010
each of you here to reflect

1215
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:26,680
and so if I believe in a garden that

1216
00:53:31,710 --> 00:53:30,010
might which God it is and if I believe

1217
00:53:33,900 --> 00:53:31,720
that one particular holy book is true

1218
00:53:36,390 --> 00:53:33,910
and all the others have fault false and

1219
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:36,400
if I believe in one prophet and so forth

1220
00:53:41,580 --> 00:53:38,530
put that because I was indoctrinated

1221
00:53:44,670 --> 00:53:41,590
into this belief before I develop

1222
00:53:48,270 --> 00:53:44,680
critical thinking skills and if you've

1223
00:53:50,220 --> 00:53:48,280
got any sort of positive answer to that

1224
00:53:53,460 --> 00:53:50,230
you might like to consider whether it is

1225
00:53:55,230 --> 00:53:53,470
ethical for churches and other religions

1226
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:55,240
to indoctrinate children into beliefs

1227
00:53:59,100 --> 00:53:57,090
before they were in critical thinking

1228
00:54:01,590 --> 00:53:59,110
because they'll probably find it very

1229
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:01,600
difficult to shake off those beliefs and

1230
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:03,610
it will Harmons vary greatly in there

1231
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:21,690
and I expect I am for them what's part

1232
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:23,410
of the fun of the base which is huge top

1233
00:54:28,620 --> 00:54:25,890
extreme rage and really a short time and

1234
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:28,630
unlike me you will have honest jobs on

1235
00:54:33,660 --> 00:54:30,850
just a minister's I'd especially dr.

1236
00:54:36,210 --> 00:54:33,670
Phil comes on to fill in my day talking

1237
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:36,220
to sleep in and rest get my sermons off

1238
00:54:41,580 --> 00:54:37,690
the net it's been told you about that

1239
00:54:43,590 --> 00:54:41,590
period I just wanted to quick out

1240
00:54:46,620 --> 00:54:43,600
responses them there's a great quote

1241
00:54:50,340 --> 00:54:46,630
from a very fine atheist now dead Carl

1242
00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:50,350
Sagan and I do think that it I felt a

1243
00:54:54,060 --> 00:54:51,730
few times this is relevant to the way

1244
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:54,070
that I ants approaching this Carl Sagan

1245
00:54:58,849 --> 00:54:56,650
write this you can get into a habit of

1246
00:55:01,380 --> 00:54:58,859
thought in which you enjoy making fun of

1247
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:01,390
all those other people who don't see

1248
00:55:07,490 --> 00:55:04,330
things as clearly as you do and we have

1249
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:07,500
to guard carefully against that and

1250
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:10,090
making fun of all those people who don't

1251
00:55:14,460 --> 00:55:11,920
see things as clearly as you do we have

1252
00:55:17,970 --> 00:55:14,470
to guard carefully against it a number

1253
00:55:20,070 --> 00:55:17,980
of times I feel and I may be wrong amiss

1254
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:20,080
that ian is making sort of the

1255
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:21,690
assumption that if you're a clever

1256
00:55:28,050 --> 00:55:25,210
rational thoughtful educated person ouch

1257
00:55:30,330 --> 00:55:28,060
mine you cannot possibly conceivably

1258
00:55:32,190 --> 00:55:30,340
believe in all this nonsense about Jesus

1259
00:55:35,099 --> 00:55:32,200
and God it set receptor just keeping in

1260
00:55:36,599 --> 00:55:35,109
that area of God in the lesion and I

1261
00:55:44,670 --> 00:55:36,609
just need the phone with this is

1262
00:55:46,980 --> 00:55:44,680
provably for us Ian if you like was he

1263
00:55:51,300 --> 00:55:46,990
brought up in a religious home and did

1264
00:55:52,890 --> 00:55:51,310
he break free because if he did he's

1265
00:55:56,460 --> 00:55:52,900
either make me a claim to be some sort

1266
00:55:59,010 --> 00:55:56,470
of a Superman or his theory about how

1267
00:56:02,190 --> 00:55:59,020
things work is just nonsense and his own

1268
00:56:03,630 --> 00:56:02,200
life story can disprove true I was

1269
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:03,640
brought up being sent to Sunday School I

1270
00:56:09,359 --> 00:56:07,090
hated it I protested against it the name

1271
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:09,369
of the Shocker sunday school who thought

1272
00:56:14,330 --> 00:56:12,490
of that name but you know I was an

1273
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:14,340
atheist by the time I was about 16

1274
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:17,010
and was very reluctantly and I was angry

1275
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:18,690
when I became Christian to have been

1276
00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:21,690
convinced it was true my story doesn't

1277
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:23,160
prove anything several people change

1278
00:56:27,620 --> 00:56:25,410
sometimes for the better you have a man

1279
00:56:29,660 --> 00:56:27,630
like Francis Collins is just completed a

1280
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:29,670
work a very impressive wish in the

1281
00:56:34,460 --> 00:56:32,090
mapping out of the human genome program

1282
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:34,470
then he was a graduate scientist he

1283
00:56:38,620 --> 00:56:35,850
became convinced rich channels trim

1284
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:38,630
became a Christian I hardly a fool

1285
00:56:43,850 --> 00:56:40,650
hardly a man unable to think critically

1286
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:43,860
I given the baton to finish a very

1287
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:45,570
impressive work that was begun by an

1288
00:56:48,980 --> 00:56:47,040
atheist finished by Christian it's a

1289
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:48,990
great indication of effective some

1290
00:56:52,370 --> 00:56:50,610
attempt to draw some sharp division

1291
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:52,380
between rational thinking people and

1292
00:56:56,510 --> 00:56:54,930
science and religion is nonsense the

1293
00:56:58,570 --> 00:56:56,520
reason why people make these decisions

1294
00:57:00,860 --> 00:56:58,580
are much more complicated than that

1295
00:57:04,190 --> 00:57:00,870
because some of you will know that

1296
00:57:06,350 --> 00:57:04,200
Anthony flu who was the outstanding

1297
00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:06,360
academic atheist in the last third of

1298
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:07,680
the 20th century has just caused

1299
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:10,970
enormous upset by not becoming kitchen

1300
00:57:17,090 --> 00:57:13,770
but by saying he is now convinced that

1301
00:57:20,510 --> 00:57:17,100
he was wrong earlier and that he is now

1302
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:20,520
completed there is a god he says that he

1303
00:57:25,580 --> 00:57:23,850
thinks that probably the most likely of

1304
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:25,590
all the contenders in front of him to be

1305
00:57:29,150 --> 00:57:27,450
right is probably Christianity but he's

1306
00:57:31,310 --> 00:57:29,160
not a Christian and he doesn't believe

1307
00:57:33,500 --> 00:57:31,320
in life after death Richard Dawkins in a

1308
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:33,510
fury which you could see on youtube some

1309
00:57:37,100 --> 00:57:35,490
time ago so this is just fear of death

1310
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:37,110
and of course Anthony fluo said he knows

1311
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:38,490
that's not true because I don't believe

1312
00:57:41,900 --> 00:57:39,930
there's any life after death I just

1313
00:57:44,810 --> 00:57:41,910
think in the end rationally it makes

1314
00:57:46,550 --> 00:57:44,820
more sense to believe that the way the

1315
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:46,560
universe works and fiddly life works is

1316
00:57:51,530 --> 00:57:48,690
the result of an intelligence rather

1317
00:57:54,350 --> 00:57:51,540
than an accident so I think we need to

1318
00:57:56,660 --> 00:57:54,360
tread carefully in just assuming that

1319
00:57:59,360 --> 00:57:56,670
our position is the only intelligent one

1320
00:58:01,580 --> 00:57:59,370
of pre thinking and women quick thing on

1321
00:58:03,830 --> 00:58:01,590
the which God a Christian leaves well

1322
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:03,840
aware of the of the diversity of choice

1323
00:58:07,460 --> 00:58:05,730
and Christianity was born it was a

1324
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:07,470
ridiculous little religion if you were

1325
00:58:10,460 --> 00:58:08,850
traveling around the first century said

1326
00:58:11,660 --> 00:58:10,470
which religion of all leaders going to

1327
00:58:14,810 --> 00:58:11,670
survive you wouldn't have even noticed

1328
00:58:17,690 --> 00:58:14,820
Christianity it was a provable joke it

1329
00:58:18,830 --> 00:58:17,700
was mocked by all Christians have always

1330
00:58:20,660 --> 00:58:18,840
known one of these to live in a diverse

1331
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:20,670
world except perhaps for a few moments

1332
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:24,090
in Europe when you know it might have

1333
00:58:26,540 --> 00:58:25,530
lost that picture but I don't think most

1334
00:58:27,590 --> 00:58:26,550
until it's efficient

1335
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:27,600
a lot of the fact that the world is a

1336
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:31,770
very diverse place the argument Jesus

1337
00:58:35,390 --> 00:58:33,450
ps4 why you should take him seriously

1338
00:58:38,630 --> 00:58:35,400
who says tear apart my body and three

1339
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:38,640
this time I rebuild it Christianity only

1340
00:58:42,730 --> 00:58:40,050
religion that puts its heather and says

1341
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:42,740
here is the area of tests and proof and

1342
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:46,410
I know no one who's spent any time

1343
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:47,610
looking at the evidence for the

1344
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:49,290
resurrection of Jesus who has not come i

1345
00:58:55,700 --> 00:58:51,450
convinced i know many who are not

1346
00:58:58,550 --> 00:58:55,710
convinced most of my family but i'm not

1347
00:59:00,980 --> 00:58:58,560
saying that don't exist I used to say I

1348
00:59:01,970 --> 00:59:00,990
knew one person but then one time when

1349
00:59:03,530 --> 00:59:01,980
she was drunk and we were having dinner

1350
00:59:04,670 --> 00:59:03,540
together she said actually I do know

1351
00:59:07,550 --> 00:59:04,680
it's true I just because interested

1352
00:59:09,380 --> 00:59:07,560
having anyone tell me I live and that's

1353
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:09,390
the question so we're well aware there

1354
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:10,410
are many kinds the fact that there are

1355
00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:11,850
many false answers doesn't mean there

1356
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:13,110
isn't a right answer there might be a

1357
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:15,690
right answer but the fact that you know

1358
00:59:18,830 --> 00:59:16,890
you have two plus two is equal to what

1359
00:59:22,850 --> 00:59:18,840
and you get some people say 34 blue

1360
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:22,860
whatever Oh many answers give up that's

1361
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:24,690
not out just have to study it more

1362
00:59:29,180 --> 00:59:27,210
carefully I was disappointed to the

1363
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:29,190
court of moose cherien I'm not a lover

1364
00:59:32,570 --> 00:59:31,050
of mystery I normally speak sneeringly

1365
00:59:33,980 --> 00:59:32,580
of the use of the word mystery so am

1366
00:59:36,290 --> 00:59:33,990
would make this known a bit better

1367
00:59:39,740 --> 00:59:36,300
before you would get one box to put me

1368
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:39,750
in I for eye tooth for tooth is not an

1369
00:59:43,070 --> 00:59:41,970
example of the Old Testament clashing

1370
00:59:44,030 --> 00:59:43,080
and again I just think you should know

1371
00:59:46,460 --> 00:59:44,040
better than that if you're going to

1372
00:59:49,970 --> 00:59:46,470
argue a case which you had you'd many

1373
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:49,980
times read the context I for eye tooth

1374
00:59:56,420 --> 00:59:53,040
for tooth is given by God to the

1375
00:59:59,480 --> 00:59:56,430
magistrates of Israel and it's telling

1376
01:00:01,370 --> 00:59:59,490
me to give pure justice what was common

1377
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:01,380
then and is it still true in many tribal

1378
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:03,810
countries is that you get you lose an

1379
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:07,440
eye I kill your whole family the code of

1380
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:09,090
hammurabi which people have sometimes

1381
01:00:13,340 --> 01:00:10,650
foolish he said until they read it it's

1382
01:00:15,620 --> 01:00:13,350
just like the Ten Commandments it's

1383
01:00:17,090 --> 01:00:15,630
completely different when it depends

1384
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:17,100
what order you are in society what

1385
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:18,450
happens to you serve a peasant hurts a

1386
01:00:22,970 --> 01:00:20,850
person hired them and their family get

1387
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:22,980
wiped out if a rich person and poor

1388
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:25,410
person almost nothing happens so what

1389
01:00:29,630 --> 01:00:27,570
God says that we magistrate to Israel is

1390
01:00:30,980 --> 01:00:29,640
I for eye tooth for tooth if a king

1391
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:30,990
kills a person he loses his life for

1392
01:00:35,450 --> 01:00:34,410
peasant girls again loses life that's

1393
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:35,460
what a saint

1394
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:37,530
Jesus dealing with his people had taken

1395
01:00:40,330 --> 01:00:39,330
what was said to the magistrates and

1396
01:00:44,950 --> 01:00:40,340
brought it down to their personal

1397
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:44,960
relationships and Jesus condemning that

1398
01:00:51,020 --> 01:00:47,250
you just need to read these things a

1399
01:00:52,610 --> 01:00:51,030
little more carefully I cannot say for

1400
01:00:55,550 --> 01:00:52,620
example if I see you do a terrible crime

1401
01:00:58,400 --> 01:00:55,560
if I think right that for 10 years and I

1402
01:01:01,970 --> 01:00:58,410
locked you up under my house yes he goes

1403
01:01:03,050 --> 01:01:01,980
to present I do because I'm living out

1404
01:01:05,780 --> 01:01:03,060
of the area where I've got legitimate

1405
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:05,790
jurisdiction it said to the magistrates

1406
01:01:11,420 --> 01:01:07,890
and it's a beautiful thing aside of the

1407
01:01:12,770 --> 01:01:11,430
magistrate but in that time and now we

1408
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:12,780
are not to bring that into our relations

1409
01:01:17,390 --> 01:01:15,210
we are to turn the other cheek this is

1410
01:01:19,460 --> 01:01:17,400
the mark of what Jesus says is prudent

1411
01:01:21,770 --> 01:01:19,470
it's not just treating people average

1412
01:01:23,060 --> 01:01:21,780
Lee it's treating people the way God or

1413
01:01:27,020 --> 01:01:23,070
these to God that Jesus talks about

1414
01:01:29,150 --> 01:01:27,030
which is ridiculously generously well

1415
01:01:32,570 --> 01:01:29,160
I'll go back to the three basic points

1416
01:01:36,620 --> 01:01:32,580
in their few remaining minutes what I

1417
01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:36,630
think happens for atheists these are the

1418
01:01:42,140 --> 01:01:38,160
soft atheists they're the ones who

1419
01:01:44,990 --> 01:01:42,150
haven't got the courage to go all the

1420
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:45,000
way is that they know in their guts

1421
01:01:49,130 --> 01:01:47,730
certain things are right and wrong which

1422
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:49,140
is exactly what the Bible would indicate

1423
01:01:51,710 --> 01:01:50,400
you would have because they're made in

1424
01:01:52,850 --> 01:01:51,720
the image of God whether they believe

1425
01:01:54,950 --> 01:01:52,860
you've gotten up they remain mainly

1426
01:01:56,890 --> 01:01:54,960
image of God the Bible speaks of the law

1427
01:01:59,570 --> 01:01:56,900
of God being written in people's hearts

1428
01:02:02,600 --> 01:01:59,580
all right that people know certain

1429
01:02:04,220 --> 01:02:02,610
things are right and wrong atheists know

1430
01:02:06,170 --> 01:02:04,230
in their guts certain things are right

1431
01:02:07,340 --> 01:02:06,180
and wrong now they'll be wrong on some

1432
01:02:10,370 --> 01:02:07,350
like we're all every culture is right

1433
01:02:11,780 --> 01:02:10,380
and wrong in some areas the problem is

1434
01:02:14,540 --> 01:02:11,790
that their head doesn't agree with their

1435
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:14,550
gut one of the things about a worldview

1436
01:02:19,130 --> 01:02:17,130
the tests it is it isn't able to explain

1437
01:02:20,990 --> 01:02:19,140
it's part of the power of the theory of

1438
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:21,000
evolution is the fact that it's got

1439
01:02:25,820 --> 01:02:24,090
tremendous explanatory power all sorts

1440
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:25,830
of different bits of garter we discover

1441
01:02:28,820 --> 01:02:27,450
i will explain within the theory now

1442
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:28,830
that doesn't prove it to be true but it

1443
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:31,650
certainly points in its favor and I

1444
01:02:34,910 --> 01:02:33,450
think what what what I'm saying is that

1445
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:34,920
the trouble with atheism when thoughts

1446
01:02:38,900 --> 01:02:36,930
were consistently is it runs into a

1447
01:02:40,580 --> 01:02:38,910
massive crack between the gut the heart

1448
01:02:43,250 --> 01:02:40,590
the feeling of life which is a central

1449
01:02:44,990 --> 01:02:43,260
part of life the humans and their

1450
01:02:46,530 --> 01:02:45,000
capacity to articulate a logical

1451
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:46,540
connection

1452
01:02:50,859 --> 01:02:49,490
where's and that is where let me just

1453
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:50,869
give you some examples Lee I think this

1454
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:52,490
is being unfair i've got a whole series

1455
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:55,010
of quote here from good hard clear

1456
01:02:59,230 --> 01:02:57,410
thinking atheists let me give you one

1457
01:03:00,910 --> 01:02:59,240
from John Jewish famous fridge work in

1458
01:03:03,339 --> 01:03:00,920
libraries and education there is no God

1459
01:03:05,470 --> 01:03:03,349
there is no soul there is no room for

1460
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:05,480
fixed natural law or permanent moral

1461
01:03:12,730 --> 01:03:11,119
absolutes Michael ruse right right

1462
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:12,740
there's a professor of science

1463
01:03:16,540 --> 01:03:14,930
philosophy science the man who says that

1464
01:03:18,370 --> 01:03:16,550
it's morally acceptable to rate little

1465
01:03:19,890 --> 01:03:18,380
children is just as mistaken as demand

1466
01:03:23,170 --> 01:03:19,900
who says two plus two is equal to five

1467
01:03:25,089 --> 01:03:23,180
right so he's an absolutist on right and

1468
01:03:26,530 --> 01:03:25,099
wrong the position of the modern

1469
01:03:28,300 --> 01:03:26,540
evolutionist is that humans have an

1470
01:03:30,700 --> 01:03:28,310
awareness of morality because such an

1471
01:03:32,770 --> 01:03:30,710
awareness is of biological work morality

1472
01:03:35,319 --> 01:03:32,780
is a biological adaptation are less than

1473
01:03:37,270 --> 01:03:35,329
the hands and feet and teeth considered

1474
01:03:39,839 --> 01:03:37,280
as a rationally justifiable set of

1475
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:39,849
claims about an objective something

1476
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:45,530
ethics is an illusion morality is just

1477
01:03:50,980 --> 01:03:47,690
an aid to survival and reproduction any

1478
01:03:53,260 --> 01:03:50,990
deeper meaning is an illusion Paul Kurtz

1479
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:53,270
and other atheists says the central

1480
01:03:57,609 --> 01:03:54,650
question that moral and ethical

1481
01:03:59,260 --> 01:03:57,619
principles concerns their foundation if

1482
01:04:00,910 --> 01:03:59,270
they are neither derived from God nor

1483
01:04:04,589 --> 01:04:00,920
anchored in sums of transcendental

1484
01:04:06,910 --> 01:04:04,599
ground they are purely ephemeral

1485
01:04:08,260 --> 01:04:06,920
thoughtful atheists are not saying they

1486
01:04:09,220 --> 01:04:08,270
don't feel there are things that are

1487
01:04:12,220 --> 01:04:09,230
right and wrong but they've got enough

1488
01:04:15,579 --> 01:04:12,230
guts to say that they have no logical

1489
01:04:17,500 --> 01:04:15,589
moral ought to them all you can say is I

1490
01:04:19,420 --> 01:04:17,510
don't like it and I hope you agree which

1491
01:04:21,250 --> 01:04:19,430
is what Bertrand Russell said in his

1492
01:04:23,740 --> 01:04:21,260
book in his article what I what I do

1493
01:04:25,030 --> 01:04:23,750
believe he made an ethical statement

1494
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:25,040
said I only hope you agree with me

1495
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:28,010
alright that's a very sad council in the

1496
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:30,890
end you may have known you may have read

1497
01:04:33,309 --> 01:04:32,450
of the Nazi soldier twist or not

1498
01:04:35,470 --> 01:04:33,319
announce which were one of the other

1499
01:04:38,099 --> 01:04:35,480
prison camps who in a moment of ethical

1500
01:04:42,309 --> 01:04:38,109
weakness took pity on a Jewish child and

1501
01:04:44,230 --> 01:04:42,319
help the Jewish child escape he was

1502
01:04:47,530 --> 01:04:44,240
overwhelmed for days with a terrible

1503
01:04:50,589 --> 01:04:47,540
sense of guilt that within his ethical

1504
01:04:53,020 --> 01:04:50,599
world it was right for the Superman to

1505
01:04:55,450 --> 01:04:53,030
arise by getting rid of the polluting

1506
01:04:56,990 --> 01:04:55,460
lower races in the end he went and

1507
01:05:01,740 --> 01:04:57,000
confessed his sin

1508
01:05:04,170 --> 01:05:01,750
to his fellow atheist Nazi officer what

1509
01:05:08,100 --> 01:05:04,180
would you say to that man he has a

1510
01:05:12,210 --> 01:05:08,110
perfectly coherent worldview which rises

1511
01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:12,220
as adults did from his embracement of

1512
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:16,510
Nietzsche's atheism that God isn't he is

1513
01:05:21,860 --> 01:05:18,370
no more the horizons being wiped away

1514
01:05:23,940 --> 01:05:21,870
and niche said unlike all the gullible

1515
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:23,950
people at the beginning of 20th century

1516
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:25,330
said this was going to be a century of

1517
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:26,890
near paradise it's tragic reading

1518
01:05:30,620 --> 01:05:28,930
Nietzsche said because Europe will

1519
01:05:33,330 --> 01:05:30,630
finally realize that there is no God

1520
01:05:36,390 --> 01:05:33,340
this will be the bloodiest century in

1521
01:05:39,030 --> 01:05:36,400
human history he understood once you

1522
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:39,040
remove God it has massive social

1523
01:05:43,530 --> 01:05:41,170
repercussions now if there's no God too

1524
01:05:45,930 --> 01:05:43,540
bad you don't believe in something

1525
01:05:49,590 --> 01:05:45,940
because it's socially convenient truth

1526
01:05:53,010 --> 01:05:49,600
matters Dostoevsky is the fellow who

1527
01:05:55,410 --> 01:05:53,020
writes had a huge long journey thinking

1528
01:05:56,940 --> 01:05:55,420
and spiritually dead to rights this if

1529
01:05:59,970 --> 01:05:56,950
God is not then all things are

1530
01:06:03,390 --> 01:05:59,980
permissible and ultimately logically

1531
01:06:05,130 --> 01:06:03,400
he's right solves an innocent who

1532
01:06:07,890 --> 01:06:05,140
displayed such a large part and

1533
01:06:10,710 --> 01:06:07,900
undermined the credibility of the of the

1534
01:06:14,220 --> 01:06:10,720
US soil tetra was asked how do you

1535
01:06:16,590 --> 01:06:14,230
explain the fact that Stalin under an

1536
01:06:20,070 --> 01:06:16,600
articulate atheistic materialist

1537
01:06:23,850 --> 01:06:20,080
worldview killed 16 million of his own

1538
01:06:27,270 --> 01:06:23,860
people 60 million makes hit that look

1539
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:27,280
like a schoolboys souls in it some

1540
01:06:34,590 --> 01:06:29,010
thought and then his simple reply was

1541
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:34,600
our nation forgot God there isn't a huge

1542
01:06:39,210 --> 01:06:36,730
connection between weighty senses of

1543
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:39,220
what is right and wrong atheists are

1544
01:06:44,190 --> 01:06:41,770
often very fine people but it's the

1545
01:06:50,780 --> 01:06:44,200
difficulty they have on saying my god

1546
01:06:53,460 --> 01:06:50,790
has a logical coherent reason blandness

1547
01:06:55,710 --> 01:06:53,470
let me remind you again of what Jesus

1548
01:06:59,610 --> 01:06:55,720
says we tend to think of the just being

1549
01:07:01,290 --> 01:06:59,620
nice and not doing too much harm the

1550
01:07:02,670 --> 01:07:01,300
Good Samaritan which people often spagh

1551
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:02,680
are he was a good smart for someone

1552
01:07:06,900 --> 01:07:05,050
that's again such a bland mistake of it

1553
01:07:09,059 --> 01:07:06,910
the whole thing with the Samaritans to

1554
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:09,069
is that Samaritans and Jews hated each

1555
01:07:14,970 --> 01:07:13,450
other's guts and hit I for I again and

1556
01:07:17,010 --> 01:07:14,980
again deliberate acts of cruelty and

1557
01:07:18,870 --> 01:07:17,020
culture to culture individuals which

1558
01:07:21,900 --> 01:07:18,880
flooding what end is said is it could be

1559
01:07:23,279 --> 01:07:21,910
I was amazed to think he thought that's

1560
01:07:24,569 --> 01:07:23,289
not a bad thing well welcome to eunice

1561
01:07:25,890 --> 01:07:24,579
la via welcome to the Middle East

1562
01:07:28,079 --> 01:07:25,900
welcome to all sorts of problems that

1563
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:28,089
can't be solved which is what I for eye

1564
01:07:34,770 --> 01:07:30,730
tooth for tooth does the Good Samaritan

1565
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:34,780
loves the hated enemy that's what Jesus

1566
01:07:39,630 --> 01:07:38,170
says is good so when the normal atheist

1567
01:07:40,859 --> 01:07:39,640
whatever your normal Australian said I'm

1568
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:40,869
a pretty good person they're talking

1569
01:07:47,130 --> 01:07:45,130
watch compared to SD vs goodness's is

1570
01:07:50,690 --> 01:07:47,140
tested and seen when you do with your

1571
01:07:53,490 --> 01:07:50,700
enemy that's the key because in the end

1572
01:07:55,140 --> 01:07:53,500
that is what we see in God I'm

1573
01:07:57,020 --> 01:07:55,150
disappointed to hear Ian's complete

1574
01:07:59,279 --> 01:07:57,030
misunderstanding of the death of Jesus I

1575
01:08:02,789 --> 01:07:59,289
have little doubt he's have it explained

1576
01:08:04,460 --> 01:08:02,799
him before but it is not someone a third

1577
01:08:07,230 --> 01:08:04,470
party of course it's a wicked injustice

1578
01:08:10,079 --> 01:08:07,240
if I get busted again breaking the speed

1579
01:08:11,339 --> 01:08:10,089
limit and you lose your license which is

1580
01:08:14,150 --> 01:08:11,349
the way that he spoke of it that's not

1581
01:08:16,769 --> 01:08:14,160
at all what Jesus thinks is going on

1582
01:08:19,860 --> 01:08:16,779
what Jesus says is i am the father of

1583
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:19,870
one what jesus saying is not that sort

1584
01:08:25,709 --> 01:08:23,410
of some arbitrary in just procedure but

1585
01:08:27,300 --> 01:08:25,719
it's God in himself taking the

1586
01:08:30,090 --> 01:08:27,310
consequence for our sin and forgiveness

1587
01:08:31,979 --> 01:08:30,100
always does that if you've ever

1588
01:08:35,010 --> 01:08:31,989
forgiving someone who has really hurt

1589
01:08:36,749 --> 01:08:35,020
you I mean really hurt you it is the

1590
01:08:39,900 --> 01:08:36,759
most unnatural procedure in the universe

1591
01:08:41,579 --> 01:08:39,910
the natural easy instinctive animal

1592
01:08:43,829 --> 01:08:41,589
thing is to take revenge when I read

1593
01:08:45,419 --> 01:08:43,839
Kerry Packer say I'm a great friend but

1594
01:08:48,380 --> 01:08:45,429
a terrible enemy of that will welcome to

1595
01:08:51,260 --> 01:08:48,390
the primary school playground big deal

1596
01:08:56,099 --> 01:08:51,270
that's just instinctive animal behavior

1597
01:08:57,780 --> 01:08:56,109
but this is to forgive someone and what

1598
01:08:59,700 --> 01:08:57,790
Jesus doings he is taken in himself

1599
01:09:02,099 --> 01:08:59,710
between the father son and spirit this

1600
01:09:04,919 --> 01:09:02,109
is a transaction going on so it's not at

1601
01:09:06,510 --> 01:09:04,929
all that arbitrary thing it has always

1602
01:09:07,499 --> 01:09:06,520
been not from the very beginning you

1603
01:09:08,729 --> 01:09:07,509
either think it's the most beautiful

1604
01:09:11,039 --> 01:09:08,739
thing that has ever happened in the

1605
01:09:12,510 --> 01:09:11,049
universe which is what I do that's why

1606
01:09:15,849 --> 01:09:12,520
Christians didn't call a black friday

1607
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:15,859
bit good friday or you mock it

1608
01:09:18,939 --> 01:09:17,690
that's not a 21st century thing that's

1609
01:09:22,390 --> 01:09:18,949
the first entry thing it happened way

1610
01:09:35,810 --> 01:09:22,400
back then still a great time at well I

1611
01:09:41,510 --> 01:09:39,090
okay thanks Ian I'll try and present

1612
01:09:49,860 --> 01:09:41,520
several of those points you brought up

1613
01:09:51,090 --> 01:09:49,870
as best I can firstly you said that if

1614
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:51,100
there's no God this will be the

1615
01:09:55,710 --> 01:09:53,410
bloodiest century that we've seen

1616
01:09:58,590 --> 01:09:55,720
something something like that well I'd

1617
01:10:01,500 --> 01:09:58,600
like to point out that to reinforce the

1618
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:01,510
fact that if there is a God century

1619
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:03,130
would be much bloodier than any we've

1620
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:05,410
ever seen I described to you before the

1621
01:10:12,480 --> 01:10:09,130
story of the Midianites I can also tell

1622
01:10:15,660 --> 01:10:12,490
you about the story of Lot's daughters

1623
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:15,670
the fact this is in Genesis chapter 19

1624
01:10:19,980 --> 01:10:18,610
where two angels came to Sodom on in the

1625
01:10:26,490 --> 01:10:19,990
evening and what was sitting at the gate

1626
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:26,500
of Sodom and so forth and the angels

1627
01:10:31,710 --> 01:10:29,650
satori the crowd said bring those angels

1628
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:31,720
up to us that we may know them carnally

1629
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:36,010
apparently they wanted to bugger them to

1630
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:37,810
put it in the vernacular and lot said

1631
01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:39,730
see now I have two daughters who have

1632
01:10:44,490 --> 01:10:42,880
not known a man please let me bring them

1633
01:10:46,860 --> 01:10:44,500
out to you and you may do with them as

1634
01:10:50,100 --> 01:10:46,870
you wish so game see another message

1635
01:10:53,070 --> 01:10:50,110
where it's okay to treat your daughters

1636
01:10:55,500 --> 01:10:53,080
as bargaining material with your enemies

1637
01:10:56,670 --> 01:10:55,510
and let them being hacked raped in fact

1638
01:10:59,640 --> 01:10:56,680
there at least two other stories in the

1639
01:11:02,100 --> 01:10:59,650
Bible where men send their wives out to

1640
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:02,110
beep a crate to all night by their enemy

1641
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:03,850
in an attempt to appease the enemy and

1642
01:11:07,530 --> 01:11:05,770
when she crawls back to the door in the

1643
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:07,540
morning and knocks on the door he

1644
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:09,010
basically opened the door and says come

1645
01:11:16,140 --> 01:11:11,650
in and make me breakfast and this is the

1646
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:16,150
word of god and your God speaking so I

1647
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:18,970
don't think that stands up very well and

1648
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:20,650
let's have to say that this was just the

1649
01:11:28,020 --> 01:11:24,570
Old Testament was just merely the young

1650
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:28,030
ancient myths other than the word of God

1651
01:11:34,380 --> 01:11:30,610
let's look at now what Jesus said this

1652
01:11:36,030 --> 01:11:34,390
is in Matthew chapter 5 do not think

1653
01:11:38,100 --> 01:11:36,040
that I came to destroy the law or the

1654
01:11:40,890 --> 01:11:38,110
prophets I did not come to destroy but

1655
01:11:43,770 --> 01:11:40,900
to fulfill for assuredly I say to you

1656
01:11:44,450 --> 01:11:43,780
till heaven and earth pass away 1 and

1657
01:11:46,459 --> 01:11:44,460
jot or one

1658
01:11:50,300 --> 01:11:46,469
tipper will by no means pass from the

1659
01:11:52,130 --> 01:11:50,310
law to with his all fulfilled so there

1660
01:11:54,650 --> 01:11:52,140
Jesus is saying that he completely

1661
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:54,660
hundred percent affirms the law of the

1662
01:11:58,940 --> 01:11:56,850
prophets including the laws that Moses

1663
01:12:01,400 --> 01:11:58,950
made that I read to you before about the

1664
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:01,410
Midianites and the other crime so Jesus

1665
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:04,170
reinforced it so we have not only quite

1666
01:12:10,130 --> 01:12:06,810
a number one Jesus saying but sorry but

1667
01:12:12,020 --> 01:12:10,140
London the Old Testament God saying it

1668
01:12:13,670 --> 01:12:12,030
but we have got number two Jesus saying

1669
01:12:15,440 --> 01:12:13,680
it and it's written in the Old Testament

1670
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:15,450
and the New Testament and has been

1671
01:12:21,380 --> 01:12:18,930
repeated by all one most theologian

1672
01:12:23,810 --> 01:12:21,390
since then so that has it been that's a

1673
01:12:25,459 --> 01:12:23,820
cool a characteristic of the Christian

1674
01:12:29,300 --> 01:12:25,469
faith but they hold up models like that

1675
01:12:31,220 --> 01:12:29,310
and pretend that the good morals now I'd

1676
01:12:41,150 --> 01:12:31,230
like to touch briefly on the credibility

1677
01:12:43,370 --> 01:12:41,160
of the Old Testament and we're going to

1678
01:12:45,140 --> 01:12:43,380
because we had a discussion on Friday

1679
01:12:46,940 --> 01:12:45,150
night where we touched on the authority

1680
01:12:49,130 --> 01:12:46,950
of the various Gospels and their

1681
01:12:50,690 --> 01:12:49,140
accuracy and so forth so this is a bit

1682
01:12:53,630 --> 01:12:50,700
out in my area I'm a scientist rather

1683
01:12:55,790 --> 01:12:53,640
than a Bible scholar but let's look at

1684
01:12:59,660 --> 01:12:55,800
it Julius Caesar now Julius Caesar live

1685
01:13:01,430 --> 01:12:59,670
for 100 BC for 44 BC and about the same

1686
01:13:02,870 --> 01:13:01,440
time as Jesus is got the same initials

1687
01:13:05,420 --> 01:13:02,880
lived in the same area in the Middle

1688
01:13:07,010 --> 01:13:05,430
East and what evidence do we have Julius

1689
01:13:09,740 --> 01:13:07,020
Caesar's existence and deeds we had his

1690
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:09,750
own commentaries in his own writing we

1691
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:12,210
have Cicero's reports both speeches and

1692
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:15,450
writing who saw him personally we see a

1693
01:13:20,750 --> 01:13:18,210
writer called Sallis who also wrote

1694
01:13:22,910 --> 01:13:20,760
extensively and new Julius Caesar and

1695
01:13:25,190 --> 01:13:22,920
recorded his from day to day his

1696
01:13:28,700 --> 01:13:25,200
activities and we even had the slug him

1697
01:13:30,290 --> 01:13:28,710
carved by people who saw him so here we

1698
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:30,300
have an influential leader in the middle

1699
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:32,250
east of that period and a hundred

1700
01:13:35,810 --> 01:13:33,690
different ways of confirming their

1701
01:13:37,940 --> 01:13:35,820
existence in their deeds that's compared

1702
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:37,950
that with Jesus Christ now for a moment

1703
01:13:42,380 --> 01:13:40,890
and will say that if there really is a

1704
01:13:45,979 --> 01:13:42,390
Christian God who wanted to get this

1705
01:13:47,420 --> 01:13:45,989
message out being all powerful and so

1706
01:13:48,770 --> 01:13:47,430
forth he would have no trouble at all in

1707
01:13:50,750 --> 01:13:48,780
getting up the message a bit stronger

1708
01:13:53,380 --> 01:13:50,760
than Julius Caesar you would think if it

1709
01:13:56,350 --> 01:13:53,390
was for real so is that what we find

1710
01:13:58,630 --> 01:13:56,360
this look at the Gospels for example

1711
01:14:00,760 --> 01:13:58,640
but here is hospital gospel is called

1712
01:14:04,690 --> 01:14:00,770
Martin to written about 70 AD that is

1713
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:04,700
about 40 years after Jesus died we had

1714
01:14:08,820 --> 01:14:06,890
Matthew and Luke which are family copies

1715
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:08,830
of Mark so they don't count either

1716
01:14:15,460 --> 01:14:12,890
insane only from the same text we have

1717
01:14:17,710 --> 01:14:15,470
and they were not even named Joe added

1718
01:14:20,140 --> 01:14:17,720
an AV AV so here for they'll probably

1719
01:14:22,060 --> 01:14:20,150
not even written by Matthew Mark and

1720
01:14:23,530 --> 01:14:22,070
Luke at all and then we have the Gospel

1721
01:14:26,380 --> 01:14:23,540
according to John which is entirely

1722
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:26,390
different and you can help through the

1723
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:29,090
chain all the way up and find that there

1724
01:14:34,810 --> 01:14:31,730
is no credibility whatsoever to any of

1725
01:14:36,580 --> 01:14:34,820
the accounts of the Bible Genesis has

1726
01:14:38,980 --> 01:14:36,590
two accounts motors leading and children

1727
01:14:41,470 --> 01:14:38,990
out of evidence out of Egypt no evidence

1728
01:14:43,660 --> 01:14:41,480
whatsoever camels existing when they

1729
01:14:45,460 --> 01:14:43,670
didn't when there's no record of them in

1730
01:14:48,100 --> 01:14:45,470
the archaeological record and so on and

1731
01:14:51,850 --> 01:14:48,110
so forth and even the early Christian

1732
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:51,860
gods Yahweh Elohim Jehovah Asherah so

1733
01:14:59,520 --> 01:14:55,090
God had a wife in one of the stories

1734
01:15:04,030 --> 01:14:59,530
Sarah thruster and zoro Esther will

1735
01:15:06,250 --> 01:15:04,040
equally changing from year to year so if

1736
01:15:08,350 --> 01:15:06,260
I'm i summarize a scientist when he

1737
01:15:10,060 --> 01:15:08,360
isn't confronted with a crime claim with

1738
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:10,070
a skeptic with some paranormal believe

1739
01:15:16,210 --> 01:15:12,890
he can apply three tests imagine a stool

1740
01:15:17,830 --> 01:15:16,220
an old milkman still with three legs the

1741
01:15:20,730 --> 01:15:17,840
three legs are evidence is there

1742
01:15:23,620 --> 01:15:20,740
evidence that it really that this

1743
01:15:25,780 --> 01:15:23,630
claimed phenomenon exists is there a

1744
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:25,790
theory on which it may exist and is

1745
01:15:28,990 --> 01:15:27,170
their credibility of the people who

1746
01:15:30,610 --> 01:15:29,000
write it write it and if any one of

1747
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:30,620
these legs falls off the stool that

1748
01:15:36,670 --> 01:15:33,890
falls over and would be discarded from a

1749
01:15:38,350 --> 01:15:36,680
rational person if we find the Christian

1750
01:15:41,110 --> 01:15:38,360
belief in all religions in fact all

1751
01:15:44,410 --> 01:15:41,120
three legs are basically turned to

1752
01:15:46,030 --> 01:15:44,420
sawdust and then exist say that would be

1753
01:15:48,130 --> 01:15:46,040
the judgment which would be applied to

1754
01:15:57,640 --> 01:15:48,140
religions given any sort of people

1755
01:16:10,510 --> 01:16:00,350
mr. Takata nice for another minute while

1756
01:16:12,440 --> 01:16:10,520
you go to tighten it later grandpa right

1757
01:16:14,570 --> 01:16:12,450
pianist I'll some terrible stories

1758
01:16:16,130 --> 01:16:14,580
tonight which presumably means he

1759
01:16:18,140 --> 01:16:16,140
believes them anything stay good so he's

1760
01:16:20,150 --> 01:16:18,150
told us the story of lot he has reported

1761
01:16:22,670 --> 01:16:20,160
the story so he must believe it's okay

1762
01:16:24,380 --> 01:16:22,680
to do that's the same sort of logic is

1763
01:16:26,570 --> 01:16:24,390
using when the Bible tells you the story

1764
01:16:30,110 --> 01:16:26,580
of what lot who is not a hero in the

1765
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:30,120
Bible he's an idiot in the Bible right

1766
01:16:33,350 --> 01:16:31,770
he's living in the city he shouldn't

1767
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:33,360
have lived in he's in love with he can't

1768
01:16:37,370 --> 01:16:35,210
leave it although God warns him

1769
01:16:38,900 --> 01:16:37,380
presumably because Ian tells the story

1770
01:16:41,090 --> 01:16:38,910
in believes it because that's what the

1771
01:16:42,260 --> 01:16:41,100
Bible is doing when you've got a book

1772
01:16:43,910 --> 01:16:42,270
that is telling you history it's going

1773
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:43,920
to have some pretty terrible things in

1774
01:16:50,570 --> 01:16:47,610
it unless it's not real history because

1775
01:16:53,140 --> 01:16:50,580
humans of every shape and color do

1776
01:16:57,050 --> 01:16:53,150
terrible things you do terrible things

1777
01:16:59,780 --> 01:16:57,060
we all have things we regret and we all

1778
01:17:02,150 --> 01:16:59,790
you know as Mark Twain said humans are

1779
01:17:04,730 --> 01:17:02,160
the only animals that blush and the only

1780
01:17:06,260 --> 01:17:04,740
ones that need to there are all things

1781
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:06,270
that we you and I need forgiveness for

1782
01:17:10,250 --> 01:17:08,130
the Bible record those things for us and

1783
01:17:11,510 --> 01:17:10,260
then we can learn things if we're

1784
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:11,520
willing to read them with an assembly

1785
01:17:19,070 --> 01:17:16,650
open mind the remarkable thing about

1786
01:17:20,980 --> 01:17:19,080
Jesus is that there is any reference to

1787
01:17:23,780 --> 01:17:20,990
him at all outside the New Testament

1788
01:17:26,300 --> 01:17:23,790
it's possible for us to conceive what an

1789
01:17:28,820 --> 01:17:26,310
insignificant little blip wasn't even a

1790
01:17:30,470 --> 01:17:28,830
blip on the horizon Jesus was the number

1791
01:17:33,410 --> 01:17:30,480
of people that the Romans crucified is

1792
01:17:35,750 --> 01:17:33,420
extraordinary in Jerusalem far larger

1793
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:35,760
movements following false messiahs than

1794
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:37,770
what happened of Jesus were wiped out by

1795
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:41,370
the Romans its extent expect to find

1796
01:17:47,420 --> 01:17:44,970
anything but surprisingly you do let me

1797
01:17:49,940 --> 01:17:47,430
give you some examples Tacitus the Roman

1798
01:17:51,170 --> 01:17:49,950
historian the famous eminent romina

1799
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:51,180
story started that said the university

1800
01:17:56,500 --> 01:17:53,010
or on the chaplain mentioned Jesus

1801
01:17:59,870 --> 01:17:56,510
Christ and when he would own Josephus a

1802
01:18:01,520 --> 01:17:59,880
famous Jewish historian speaks of Jesus

1803
01:18:02,730 --> 01:18:01,530
and his brothers which is interesting in

1804
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:02,740
fact he refers to a man

1805
01:18:07,830 --> 01:18:04,570
gets put to death and he identifies him

1806
01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:07,840
by saying James whose brother was Jesus

1807
01:18:12,570 --> 01:18:10,330
the so-called Christ which is like

1808
01:18:16,260 --> 01:18:12,580
saying bill whose brother was John

1809
01:18:18,570 --> 01:18:16,270
Howard the excess so it's you know it's

1810
01:18:20,220 --> 01:18:18,580
pretty clear this guy existed Joe see if

1811
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:20,230
it's got quite a bit about Jesus some is

1812
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:21,610
contested but that one certainly isn't

1813
01:18:25,470 --> 01:18:24,010
the town would which is the Jewish

1814
01:18:27,570 --> 01:18:25,480
writings about Jesus written by the

1815
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:27,580
rabbi's the people who had Jesus had put

1816
01:18:30,690 --> 01:18:28,930
to death they talked about Jesus a

1817
01:18:32,130 --> 01:18:30,700
number of times Rabbi Eliezer Ben her

1818
01:18:33,780 --> 01:18:32,140
account as the third says by things

1819
01:18:34,860 --> 01:18:33,790
about him now if you don't think that

1820
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:34,870
the Bible's interesting to know what he

1821
01:18:40,170 --> 01:18:38,290
says he says he is the false teacher he

1822
01:18:43,860 --> 01:18:40,180
says he had disciples any names five of

1823
01:18:46,410 --> 01:18:43,870
them he is a blasphemer but he was mayor

1824
01:18:47,820 --> 01:18:46,420
human man-made it's about to be God he

1825
01:18:50,460 --> 01:18:47,830
was put to death on the eve of the

1826
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:50,470
Passover he says he will return but he

1827
01:18:55,860 --> 01:18:53,170
will not where he has a liar right this

1828
01:18:57,510 --> 01:18:55,870
is not a friendly commentary alright but

1829
01:18:59,250 --> 01:18:57,520
there's not a shred of doubt in any

1830
01:19:01,440 --> 01:18:59,260
historians mind that Jesus Christ was a

1831
01:19:02,610 --> 01:19:01,450
real figure of history what you got with

1832
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:02,620
the numbers about the Gospels and I

1833
01:19:05,820 --> 01:19:04,090
don't mean to be rude was the very best

1834
01:19:07,770 --> 01:19:05,830
of 19th century history from Germany

1835
01:19:10,830 --> 01:19:07,780
there's been a whole century and a half

1836
01:19:12,210 --> 01:19:10,840
since then seriously reworking some of

1837
01:19:14,220 --> 01:19:12,220
the dates are some of the German schools

1838
01:19:17,430 --> 01:19:14,230
on the Gospels we have scraps of the

1839
01:19:19,440 --> 01:19:17,440
Gospels that is evidence bits of paper

1840
01:19:20,700 --> 01:19:19,450
us with the Gospels on it from within 20

1841
01:19:22,230 --> 01:19:20,710
or 30 years of them so the whole day

1842
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:22,240
thinking clearly can't have a scrap of a

1843
01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:23,770
gospel if the gospel wars amrit until

1844
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:26,130
after that date I mean it really that's

1845
01:19:32,130 --> 01:19:29,050
it's not using good logic and evidence

1846
01:19:33,990 --> 01:19:32,140
at that point I think Carl Sagan's right

1847
01:19:36,270 --> 01:19:34,000
we've got a tree other positions with

1848
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:36,280
respect because there are very

1849
01:19:39,780 --> 01:19:37,930
intelligent Christians and very

1850
01:19:41,910 --> 01:19:39,790
intelligent Muslims and very intelligent

1851
01:19:43,650 --> 01:19:41,920
agnostics and very intelligent atheists

1852
01:19:46,470 --> 01:19:43,660
and the way to deal with is not just to

1853
01:19:50,660 --> 01:19:46,480
send up the position in really what it

1854
01:19:54,690 --> 01:19:50,670
ends up being sort of half-truths so I

1855
01:19:57,330 --> 01:19:54,700
think in the end we cannot be good

1856
01:19:59,840 --> 01:19:57,340
enough without God because in the end

1857
01:20:02,130 --> 01:19:59,850
goodness is reduced to preference

1858
01:20:06,480 --> 01:20:02,140
thankfully most of the time we agree

1859
01:20:09,420 --> 01:20:06,490
sometimes we don't I learnt this

1860
01:20:11,070 --> 01:20:09,430
recently again at a cousin in law she

1861
01:20:12,540 --> 01:20:11,080
comes from a long family of atheists

1862
01:20:13,359 --> 01:20:12,550
clearly brainwashed three three

1863
01:20:15,699 --> 01:20:13,369
generations

1864
01:20:19,119 --> 01:20:15,709
so pinas worth noting his word Octavius

1865
01:20:21,159 --> 01:20:19,129
but she is what I call a sad and honest

1866
01:20:23,169 --> 01:20:21,169
atheist we had this conversation she

1867
01:20:25,330 --> 01:20:23,179
says I know in the end that i am worth

1868
01:20:27,159 --> 01:20:25,340
nothing those i love a worth noting it

1869
01:20:29,770 --> 01:20:27,169
all comes to nothing my work means

1870
01:20:31,389 --> 01:20:29,780
nothing she's a very ethical woman she

1871
01:20:33,909 --> 01:20:31,399
left a highly paid job to go another job

1872
01:20:36,189 --> 01:20:33,919
which is did less damage but she

1873
01:20:39,100 --> 01:20:36,199
understands here it's fundamentally

1874
01:20:41,770 --> 01:20:39,110
appearance alright she's like a European

1875
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:41,780
she's like a Nietzschean atheist she

1876
01:20:45,699 --> 01:20:43,489
she's got the guts not to be an

1877
01:20:47,290 --> 01:20:45,709
intellectual hypocrite and I just think

1878
01:20:48,639 --> 01:20:47,300
in the same way Christians get hammered

1879
01:20:50,020 --> 01:20:48,649
for being hypocrites rightly because

1880
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:50,030
that's what that whole attack on

1881
01:20:53,799 --> 01:20:51,530
hypocrites comes from Jesus that's how

1882
01:20:55,270 --> 01:20:53,809
to enter our traditions so I think

1883
01:20:57,159 --> 01:20:55,280
atheist need to have enough courage to

1884
01:20:59,169 --> 01:20:57,169
say listen all we've got is preferences

1885
01:21:02,319 --> 01:20:59,179
and we hope you agree and it is

1886
01:21:04,750 --> 01:21:02,329
difficult Sodom and Gomorrah get

1887
01:21:06,850 --> 01:21:04,760
destroyed as you probably know not

1888
01:21:11,290 --> 01:21:06,860
because of the attempt at homosexual

1889
01:21:12,729 --> 01:21:11,300
rape they get that's one material they

1890
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:12,739
get destroyed we're told the prophet

1891
01:21:18,069 --> 01:21:15,050
Ezekiel because their view of goodness

1892
01:21:19,859 --> 01:21:18,079
was certainly and pathetic what God says

1893
01:21:24,119 --> 01:21:19,869
is here's why he destroyed their city

1894
01:21:28,509 --> 01:21:24,129
because they were process arrogant and

1895
01:21:29,919 --> 01:21:28,519
cared nothing for the poor again and

1896
01:21:31,449 --> 01:21:29,929
again you'll find why the Bible says

1897
01:21:33,879 --> 01:21:31,459
people get in trouble with God is not

1898
01:21:36,279 --> 01:21:33,889
because of what they do but it's because

1899
01:21:38,350 --> 01:21:36,289
of what they don't do they don't care

1900
01:21:40,359 --> 01:21:38,360
enough they don't inconvenience

1901
01:21:41,919 --> 01:21:40,369
themselves for the poor they could make

1902
01:21:44,379 --> 01:21:41,929
a huge difference and they make a tiny

1903
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:44,389
difference the thing that in the end

1904
01:21:48,810 --> 01:21:46,489
brought that community to an end was

1905
01:21:53,589 --> 01:21:48,820
their complete indifference to the poor

1906
01:21:56,409 --> 01:21:53,599
the Midianites were disgusting violent

1907
01:21:58,239 --> 01:21:56,419
evil of Pauline culture and there are

1908
01:22:00,850 --> 01:21:58,249
times when God will bring cultures to an

1909
01:22:03,279 --> 01:22:00,860
end he is a God who loves what is right

1910
01:22:04,689 --> 01:22:03,289
is tolerant for quite some time but in

1911
01:22:07,449 --> 01:22:04,699
the end will come to judgment with

1912
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:07,459
cultures and with you and I there's

1913
01:22:10,929 --> 01:22:09,050
nothing insipid about the goodness that

1914
01:22:20,060 --> 01:22:10,939
the Bible speak so therefore we need

1915
01:22:30,990 --> 01:22:26,270
it has been raining and when you have a

1916
01:22:33,630 --> 01:22:31,000
video instead of these 7 2014 in tonight

1917
01:22:35,670 --> 01:22:33,640
is the right one or where you've been

1918
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:35,680
simulator to think issues through

1919
01:22:42,390 --> 01:22:39,130
further I would like you will agree dad

1920
01:22:45,420 --> 01:22:42,400
writers have given of themselves both to

1921
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:45,430
issues Carolyn see me and also we're

1922
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:48,850
very grateful to for their time you each

1923
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:52,330
other on p.m. integration is no easy

1924
01:23:09,780 --> 01:22:55,570
feat actually fun event like this so we

1925
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:12,459
well thanks for joining me today for the

1926
01:23:17,260 --> 01:23:13,850
skeptic zone and hearing that

1927
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:17,270
interesting debate and thank you to all

1928
01:23:21,910 --> 01:23:19,250
the people who continue to sponsor our

1929
01:23:25,810 --> 01:23:21,920
show by making small contributions via

1930
01:23:29,020 --> 01:23:25,820
our website at wwc eptic zone TV and

1931
01:23:31,360 --> 01:23:29,030
clicking on the paypal button your

1932
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:31,370
contributions really do make a

1933
01:23:36,939 --> 01:23:33,170
difference and means we can keep the

1934
01:23:39,189 --> 01:23:36,949
show online week after week join me

1935
01:23:41,290 --> 01:23:39,199
again next week me and Stefan of course

1936
01:23:43,390 --> 01:23:41,300
for the regular show with dr. Richie

1937
01:23:45,820 --> 01:23:43,400
reports a grain of salt the think tank

1938
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:45,830
and all the features that we hope you

1939
01:23:53,770 --> 01:23:48,050
enjoy until then this is Richard

1940
01:23:56,169 --> 01:23:53,780
Saunders from Sydney Australia you've

1941
01:24:00,790 --> 01:23:56,179
been listening to the skeptic zone visit

1942
01:24:03,250 --> 01:24:00,800
our website at wwc a petting zoo TV for

1943
01:24:06,150 --> 01:24:03,260
comments contacts and extra video

1944
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:17,479
skin

1945
01:24:17,489 --> 01:24:19,890
Oh